ASIC Mining?

[Oj0]

Seeing as there are so many preorders, its definitely not far-fetched to believe that they would hold back on deliveries
and mine away for a while...

A while as in until it is no longer worth them doing so.

BTW, I had to laugh at this:

Summary of BFL ASIC Development over the last 6 months

Going back and looking at BFL's stupid track record. You can expect them to delay another 6 months easily with no one being surprised really.

BFL: Guys we are doing X right now.
Suckers: Okay sounds good.
BFL: We are not going to ship until at least Y
Suckers: Aww that sucks, but you're the BFL thanks for the "update".

(3 months later)

BFL: We are now doing X.
Suckers: I thought you already did X 3 months ago? Right? ? ? ?
BFL: (SILENCE)
Suckers: Can I get a response?
Random_Complainer: Where the **** is my order BFL you *****es?
BFL: Hey IDIOT, you are a ****ing LIAR! A damn liar! Prove we are a scam douche bag!
Suckers: I'm still waiting for you to answer my question
BFL: (SILENCE)

 

[Pyro]

My concern is simple. What happens when it is no longer profitable to mine?

The amount of people hashing could drop substantially making it possible that a rogue entity might Amass enough hardware to run the bit chain fast enough to pass fraudulent transactions in to the chain.

And even if it doesn't, how well will the currency run once it runs low on computing power?

Tapatalked from my S2

 

[Landmark Computers]

I've ordered and paid for a 5Gh/s miner. TBH if it arrives I will truly be quite amazed.
I paid in BTC (which I mined back in 2011 at a rate of around 3 a day with my 5970) so the loss will be low for me.
By the time it is (if ever) delivered the difficulty will probably be so high (rising at a rate or around 10% every 2016 blocks) that I'll probably only get 1/2 of what my current system is mining at.

Will Bitcoin die? Only a fool would try to answer that with any certainty.
I like to think BTC is here to stay and looking at who supports the currency/commodity they are my kinda people.

To add another comment to this, we need to understand fiat currencies and the bubble of poo poo they are in at the moment to fully realise the need for BTC.
What we all felt (and are still feeling) from the crash of 2007/2008 is nothing to what may very easily arrive late this year when the money being printed by the FED comes into circulation.
All that money can only lead to inflation and therefor high interest rates as the banks try to mop the money back into their coffers.
Bad news for all of us as this will see the price of goods shoot through the roof, stocks drop and jobs being cut etc.

Of course this could never happen but based on what I have read and people (in banks) I have spoken to things are looking grey.
If you want to arm yourself with knowledge then I highly suggest watching The Keiser Report on RT (and YouTube) as well as Zeitgeist (on Youtube).

It's moved beyond conspiracy theory to reality.

 

[roligov]

Which did you order LC? The BFL or the Avalon? I wasn't so sure BFL were crooks until I came across this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0

 

[Oj0]

Slow to the game, I mentioned the mail fraud back on page one

 

[roligov]

Sorry yip just skipped to page 4

 

[Damin]

First link is just a box, second link is a 5 GHash/s unit, not the 25 and 50 they promised. I.e the product does not yet exist.

I just tried to find a name by looking at the BFL Wiki page, there isn't one but look here:

Oj0 this is some seriously impressive detective work.
Hats of to you sir

ROFL!

Now onto the juicy bits:

Type	First Name	Middle	Last Name	Title	Organization	Address
President / Director	CHRIS		VLEISIDES			2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108
President / Director	Nasser		Ghoseiri			2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108

Source

See that name, Chris Vleisides? Well check this out:



Source

What did he do? Have a look here:



Extraction of affidavit for extradition warrant, available here.

How do we know they're one and the same? Here we go:



This post was by an employee, Chief Operating Officer Josh from the above video, of Butterfly Labs. While he has kind words about his employer he has also confirmed that his employer is the convicted mail fraudster. I guess that reflects rather poorly on him, too - although he's the one who confessed to taking ORDERS (not pre-orders) for a product which still did not exist almost a year later. Source.

Sonny/Chris Vleisides was also given probation. Take special note of his probation terms, specifically point 3:



A copy of his entire probation documentation can be found here. His probation orders are dated 15 September 2010, meaning it ends 15 September 2013. By fund-raising (i.e. charging for a product which is not yet ready for sale) he is in violation of his probation orders.

So there we go, worst case scenario is we have a company running scheme (not quite pyramid or ponzi) headed by a convicted felon in violation of his probation without a functional product. If he has been granted permission for solicitation of funds by his probation officer, we have a best case scenario of a company running a scheme (not quite pyramid or ponzi) headed by a convicted felon without a functional product.

My opinion of what's happening is as follows:

Develop FPGA mining hardware
Advertise madly, possibly going into debt to get the word out there
Sell as many units as possible, deliver on promises to build reputation (failed a bit here, deliveries were beyond slow)
Start pimping upcoming ASICs
Use pre-order money to pay for advertising (it's hard finding a BTC forum which doesn't have BFL advertising) to reach greater audience
Continue delaying and promising that even BETTER hardware is coming later, take pre-orders for "upcoming" hardware
Wait a few months until you have tens of thousands of orders paid up front valued at tens of millions of dollars - possibly more
Run

So far, all of the above steps have been ticked up to and including the penultimate step in what could be one of the bigger scams of the decade.

Even IF they do deliver, would you be willing to risk your money based on the histories of those involved as well as of the company itself?

Wow Oj0 that is a serious bit of detective work you did there.
Hats off to you sir.

 

[JollyJamma]

My best idea for people looking for ASIC miners is to join an ASIC mining forum and keep your eyes open there.
If people start posting pictures of actual units received, you'll know it's legit.

Personally I think Butterfly Labs is a scam and they are flying away with your money.

 

[roligov]

My 2c:
I think it's already to late to get into BTC mining because batch 2 of the Avalon ASIC miners have started shipping as of yesterday. So unless you already have a good few GPU's mining at least around the 2GH/s mark and you're in a pool, your chance of ROI is slim and you'd be lucky to break even.

Only saving grace would be if the value of a Bitcoin skyrockets and remains at around $250/$400 per BTC.

 

[Landmark Computers]

It's not too late to get into mining!

The problem with most people is that they think of Bitcoin as a single unit, like one Rand or one Dollar.
What we need to understand is that one Bitcoin is broken into a billion pieces. So imagine a gold bar that weights 10kg's and costs $500 000. Because of the price of this bar we have broken it down to one ounce bits (Krugerrands) to make it more affordable to the buyer. In the same way it is very possible that a single Bitcoin could be worth $500 000 (or the equivalent in tradable goods/services if the Dollar dies). If you have say 0.00076565 you still have something of value, a lot of value. The worse that could happen is you pay a bit more on your electricity bill. Even if you mine for two or three months the loss will be low if Bitcoin goes bang but the potential gains will be enormous.

 

[roligov]

Say you start from scratch. Right now you can buy a Powercolor HD7990 for R10000, a new 840W power supply for R1500. CPU/Memory are irrelevant. With this you can mine @ 1.2GH/s. At that rate, the current difficulty and the current monetary value of a bitcoin, R1150, it will take you about 6 months of mining 24/7 to break even, that's excluding the price of electricity (which will not be a "bit more", it will be a ****load more.) This also excludes the difficulty increase every 2 weeks. The more Avalon release USB Miner, Blade Miners and Batch 2 & 3, the difficulty will shoot up and the ROI date will keep getting further and further away. This also excludes BFL actually delivering (which I doubt they will). This is also excluding the possibility of the Bitcoin market crashing and it being worth nothing.

That's why I said the saving grace would be if bitcoin skyrockets to something ridiculous...If you that confident it will, then use that R10K and buy 10 bitcoins let hold onto them

 

[Landmark Computers]

Just mine with what you have right now is what I'm saying.

 

[Oj0]

Or buy wisely. Something like a Radeon HD 7970 can be had for R4.2k and gives good returns, makes a great gaming card and selling the card can be done for a very small loss. A Radeon HD 5870 is an OK buy as while the performance/watt ratio is relatively poor, the card can later be sold for very little to no loss, possibly even a small gain. A Radeon HD 6970 isn't a great choice due to having very similar performance to the HD 5870 but at double the price. Again though, selling the card later can be done for a very small loss. An ASIC is a very poor buy as it relies on Bitcoin to have ANY value, should faster ASICs come out which make returns on mining with your current one very low, it will have little to no resale value as it has absolutely no other use. Buy wisely, get either something that you can use for gaming or which will retain its resale value, don't invest money you can't afford to lose and you should be alright.

 

[Landmark Computers]

Well yes, if you are planning an upgrade or have the funds and want to get into Bitcoin mining.

I don't know if I'm getting the point across that there is a limited supply of Bitcoins and that even if you have just one it may one day be worth a lot. So, if you have even a slightly powerful card it's great for both you as well as Bitcoin that you get into it by mining now. In 10 years you may look back at this post and say, "if only I got into this earlier with my crappy GTX460 I would have had 4 or 5 coins that are now worth $60 000. If only..."

Bitcoin is not a quick money making thing, as some may think. It's going to need time to mature and a few global economic crisis' (no problem there) can only help it gain momentum. At the moment Bitcoin is seen to many as something to trade (buy low sell high for Dollars) or as a safe haven like gold. Bitcoin was developed to be a currency based on a gold standard type of system. Once Bitcoin moves into its currency stage there is no doubt that, if the currency survives, it will be worth a lot.

Yes, I a being realistic. It is possible that Bitcoin will fail. Governments and banks would regulate it so much that it becomes just like a credit card. Banks may take a charge for every transaction and Governments could tax every deal....right just like they have tried to control and regulate bit torrents. Laugh.

BTW: If you leave you PC on like do, the electricity increase is minor (around R150 a month with a 650w PSU). That's one steak and at the local Spur with a Coke.

 

[Pansyfaust]

How dependent is the CPU/ram for such tasks? I have an old Core 2 duo and 2 gig media machine I might just convert. Buy myself a 5870 and 550W PSU on the cheap and get going.

 

[Landmark Computers]

CPU can be a 486 with 128MB RAM. In other words the CPU, RAM as well as GPU RAM (size and speed) has zero bearing on mining. It's all about GPU core speeds. BTW, there are tweaks and hacks that increase speeds on most modern nVidia cards that in some case increase hash rates by 100% and more. I've never seen therein action and cannot vouch for them but it may be worth checking out nVidia fans.

 

[Sp1dr]

CPU can be a 486 with 128MB RAM. In other words the CPU, RAM as well as GPU RAM (size and speed) has zero bearing on mining. It's all about GPU core speeds. BTW, there are tweaks and hacks that increase speeds on most modern nVidia cards that in some case increase hash rates by 100% and more. I've never seen therein action and cannot vouch for them but it may be worth checking out nVidia fans.

A 486 with 128mb ram? That would be one killer 486! Is that even possible?

 

[Sp1dr]

CPU can be a 486 with 128MB RAM. In other words the CPU, RAM as well as GPU RAM (size and speed) has zero bearing on mining. It's all about GPU core speeds. BTW, there are tweaks and hacks that increase speeds on most modern nVidia cards that in some case increase hash rates by 100% and more. I've never seen therein action and cannot vouch for them but it may be worth checking out nVidia fans.

By the way, is this true? I have a 3gb 7950, isn't there an issue if system ram is half gpu ram? I heard that it needs to be double for some reason. Also, does the GPU do ALL the work? I heard that it does all the hard work and then hands over valid hashes to the CPU to be submitted? So therefore the CPU only does the work that produces a share? At least this is the case with SCRYPT mining, as the algorithm is CPU dependent.

 

[Jypels]

CPU can be a 486 with 128MB RAM. In other words the CPU, RAM as well as GPU RAM (size and speed) has zero bearing on mining. It's all about GPU core speeds. BTW, there are tweaks and hacks that increase speeds on most modern nVidia cards that in some case increase hash rates by 100% and more. I've never seen therein action and cannot vouch for them but it may be worth checking out nVidia fans.

I agree with everything EXCEPT the gpu memory speed... increasing my 7970 mem speed from 1500 to 1900 sees a 50khash increase

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Flashgear]

I agree with everything EXCEPT the gpu memory speed... increasing my 7970 mem speed from 1500 to 1900 sees a 50mhash increase

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

That's a hefty mem clock, I don't see any difference from 1375 to 1575 at all. We all usually underclock our VRAM to the lowest speed to conserve heat and power on GPU as normally the power pull and virtually no increase in hashing is worth the extra power/heat.

 

[Jypels]

Yeah i do about 800 khash with my settings on 1150/1900 (this is with litecoining

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Oj0]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that you're not running at 1.9 GHz, regardless of what GPU-Z says. It's a known bug.

 

[Jypels]

Well im pretty sure its running at 1.9 Ghz could go to 1830 with my old accelero cooler on it and now with the new EK waterblock on it i can do 1925 before the drivers start crashing can also go to 1350 on the core pretty easy with temps at 60deg... can also ask [MENTION=2759]Ram[/MENTION] if u want any confirmation and why would i see a jump between 1500 to1600 , 1700 to 1800 and a big jump between 1800 and 1900?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jypels]

And also this is mining stable at that levels NOT games or benchmarking! Can do 1350/1850 in 3dmark and games

Edit: oj0 is there anyway i can confirm what my real mem clock is?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Oj0]

Nope. Check this validation:

techPowerUp GPU-Z Validation 7uk4u

GPU Clock: 7813 MHz
Memory Clock: 5209 MHz (that's a GDDR5 effective 20,836 MHz)

It's an issue with the Radeon HD 7xxx series. The speed gets read by the driver, not the hardware.

 

[Landmark Computers]

By the way, is this true? I have a 3gb 7950, isn't there an issue if system ram is half gpu ram? I heard that it needs to be double for some reason. Also, does the GPU do ALL the work? I heard that it does all the hard work and then hands over valid hashes to the CPU to be submitted? So therefore the CPU only does the work that produces a share? At least this is the case with SCRYPT mining, as the algorithm is CPU dependent.

Litecoin mining is different in it is heavily dependent on memory speeds of the GPU. Have never hear of this but then again I'm a Bitcoin miner and not at all interested in Litecoin. I have however mined a few Litecoins just using a 7950 and had no issues with 2GB of system memory.

 

[Landmark Computers]

I agree with everything EXCEPT the gpu memory speed... increasing my 7970 mem speed from 1500 to 1900 sees a 50khash increase

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

You cannot compare Bitcoin to your Litecoin mining in terms of how the system is setup.
Litecoin bases its algorithms on memory while Bitcoin uses the core speed. Memory speeds have zero bearing on performance for Bitcoin.

 

[Vip3r011]

Litecoin ? so if understand it correct this is more memory dependen than gpu/cpu??

can this currency also be exchanged for real money??

Ps: me a noob too mining..

 

[philthegoose]

Litecoin ? so if understand it correct this is more memory dependen than gpu/cpu??

can this currency also be exchanged for real money??

Ps: me a noob too mining..

Yes, it can be exchanged on the btc-e exchange website. Also look on reddit for the litecoin marketplace and subreddit

 

[philthegoose]

Have you guys considered FPGA mining? Basically a FPGA is a chip that contains a couple of thousand NAND gates that are the simplest logic gate that can be use to create any other logic gate and so this chip can be rearranged internally to form any other chip that you desire. FPGA's are way more power efficient than computers, they might just lag behind some ASIC miners. You have a way higher chance of recieving a FPGA board as they are commonly used in electronics engineering. You can order a developer board from Altera or Xillnix from a reputable website such as Digi-Key, Mouser or rs-components.