Ryzen 5 2600 on MSI B350M PRO-VD Plus feels terribly sluggish

[mradovan]

Hi guys

I decided to retire my trusty i7-2600 after a good few years of loyal service and treat myself to something a bit faster.
After reading what's available within the budget, I opted for a Ryzen 5 2600 system.

Must say, was rather disappointed when I put everything together and realised the new system feels a lot worse than the old one.
It's that sinking feeling when your freshly installed Windows 10 takes an entire minute to get to the desktop... and then that tiny infuriating lag between a click and whatever happens next.
After running a few benchmarks, I sort-of identified the bottlenecks - and they seem to point to the mobo chipset issues.

SATA interface problem:
I wasn't going to upset my old rig util I'm sure the new one is 100% operational, so I put in a spare 1TB drive (and the old HD 6850, since no integrated GPU).
The HD has sequential read of 110 MB/s and sequential write of 100 MB/s.
That very same disk had around 150 MB/s read and 100 MB/s write on another machine (didn't write down exactly, but that's the ballpark).

RAM issues:
RAM benchmark shows 14000 read (uncached), 7500 write and 86ms latency.
I cannot test the RAM in another machine, but my ancient DDR3 RAM has 12000 read, 8000 write and 28ms latency.
Would the first results not be considered bad for DDR4 (especially the latency)? It's a single channel though - but surely that shouldn't make that much difference?
Should I overclock it? How high before it breaks?

Things I tried:
1. Flushed the BIOS. Well, since the one I had was already latest, that did nothing.
2. Downloaded and installed all the latest drivers from MSI site.
3. Downloaded and installed all the latest drivers from AMD site.
4. Tried another hard drive, installed Windows and all - same thing.
5. Replaced the SATA cable.
6. Tried the drive in another SATA port.
7. Tried the RAM in the other slot.
8. Forced "AMD SATA Controller" instead of "Standard SATA AHCI Controller" in Device Manager (that made it even worse)

Anyone any ideas what I should try (tossing the mobo is also an option )?

System at the moment:
Board: B350M PRO VD PLUS | BIOS: E7B38AMS.290 (2018/04/27)
VGA: Club 3D Radeon HD 6850 | PSU: Gigabyte GP-P560B (650W, 80 PLUS bronze)
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600 | MEM: 1x 8GB (Kingston KVR26N19S8/8; 9905702-007.A00G; 2666 CL 19)
HDD: 1TB, Toshiba | COOLER: Stock
OC: None at the mo | OS: Windows 10 64bit Professional

Bios -

Memory bench -

Disk bench -

 

[Chekando]

You should really retire that mechanical drive to mass storage and get yourself an M.2 NVME drive for your OS and your most frequently used apps. Nobody should be using mechanical drives in 2018. This is the single biggest upgrade you could make and shouldn’t be overlooked when upgrading your system.

 

[SCHUMI4EVER]

I don't know how fussy AMDs are but that RAM would also probably prefer to be in dual channel, in other words to have a mate.

 

[Petester]

I'm not a big fan of Ryzen. Too many issues .
Ram incompatibility with the Mobo's.
Faster Ram is a bit of a lottery and often doesn't run at stable advertised speeds.
SSD performance is definitely slower on AMD based boards . Might still be immature drivers but the Intel Chipset / RST drivers just are faster and more stable.
Just seem less stable overall in my experiences with builds.

Actually you have one of the more sensible setups so in that regard you are spot on with your specs.
And yes get an SSD . I can't think of anything more important in a modern system.
Just be careful with some M.2 NVMe drives. They can get very hot and can throttle badly.
After sustained workloads they all throttle to a greater or lesser extent
Nothing wrong with a standard SATA or SATA M.2 based SSD. I would say more reliable due to the much lower temps.
More affordable too which would fit in well with your system .
The 500GB WD Blue Sata SSD is on special everywhere ( about R 1700 ) . A really good buy as it's fast enough, well priced, 5 year warranty

 

[mradovan]

You should really retire that mechanical drive to mass storage and get yourself an M.2 NVME drive for your OS and your most frequently used apps. Nobody should be using mechanical drives in 2018. This is the single biggest upgrade you could make and shouldn’t be overlooked when upgrading your system.

Thanks, bro - but that's kinda like telling a guy with an old broken Citi Golf on the side of the road, bent over the open bonet and scratching his head, that he should really tow that thing to the scrapyard and get himself a new A3, as they are rather nippy and quite reliable

I don't know how fussy AMDs are but that RAM would also probably prefer to be in dual channel, in other words to have a mate.

Thanks, that's a good point. I've been reading subsequently about it, and the word is they are quite fussy... Admittedly, the Kingston stick is meant to be be a temp solution - shopped that one by price. The plan was to get a matching pair of fancy sticks as soon as the budget allows. Ordering online is no longer an option though, trial and error sport too expensive - will have to walk the box into the shop and try them on site...

I'm not a big fan of Ryzen. Too many issues .
Ram incompatibility with the Mobo's.
Faster Ram is a bit of a lottery and often doesn't run at stable advertised speeds.
SSD performance is definitely slower on AMD based boards . Might still be immature drivers but the Intel Chipset / RST drivers just are faster and more stable.
Just seem less stable overall in my experiences with builds.

Actually you have one of the more sensible setups so in that regard you are spot on with your specs.
And yes get an SSD . I can't think of anything more important in a modern system.
Just be careful with some M.2 NVMe drives. They can get very hot and can throttle badly.
After sustained workloads they all throttle to a greater or lesser extent
Nothing wrong with a standard SATA or SATA M.2 based SSD. I would say more reliable due to the much lower temps.
More affordable too which would fit in well with your system .
The 500GB WD Blue Sata SSD is on special everywhere ( about R 1700 ) . A really good buy as it's fast enough, well priced, 5 year warranty

Wish I've spoken to you before I bought... nah, chances are I wouldn't believe you
I'm starting to realise AMD is an eternal work in progress. Used to have Intel all along, and it was always a no-brainer - everything works with everything out of the box - so expected the same... This comes as a huge shock - lesson learned the hard way.

I do have a 480GB SSD in my old machine which I plan to put in, but only once I'm sure everything works well, and in my opinion it's not. I wanted to resolve the issues before I start harvesting the parts (and get left with no working PC in the process).

 

[SCHUMI4EVER]

Ordering online is no longer an option though, trial and error sport too expensive - will have to walk the box into the shop and try them on site...

Nah man, but the approach clearly does need to change. Check for a RAM compatiblity list and check what you can find locally.

I do have a 480GB SSD in my old machine which I plan to put in, but only once I'm sure everything works well, and in my opinion it's not. I wanted to resolve the issues before I start harvesting the parts (and get left with no working PC in the process).

I'm with you on this 100%, there no reason why a system, especially a fresh install, shouldn't be be speedy enough on just a normal HDD. I have an SSD, switched out a WD Blue 7200RPM for a Samsung 850 Evo and whilst Windows boots like a dream many of the load pauses and little stutters I was expecting would now be wiped out are still there. Some stuff is definitely speedier yes, and I likely wouldn't go back now, but I really can't say it was all that much of an improvement, everything already happened snappily enough. Sure a SSD is better, but a fresh install on a traditional healthy HDD still shouldn't be running that poorly...heck I'm sure my C2Q ran better than you're describing. That healthy part is important though, make sure to check the drive out with HDD Sentinel or similar software, just a read and write test isn't the whole picture.

 

[Petester]

I spotted one unusual thing . DDR4 2667Mhz Ram running at CL19 ?
That's an unusually slow latency . Is that a typo by chance ? Even entry level DDR4 2667 ram runs at CL16 .
If unsure check on the Ram's label.
Perhaps your BIOS settings are forcing it to CL19 . If that's the default it's very odd.

Your HDD speeds are actually in line with a non Intel controller. Naturally your other PC will feel faster thanks to the SSD.
I noticed on some laptops and desktops as soon as you install the graphics driver for the graphics card it start with those tiny lags you spoke about .
I'm actually experiencing the same thing on an AMD based laptop right now I'm troubleshooting . As soon as the graphics driver is installed it starts with those pauses and lags.

Often it's caused by the latest graphics driver with an older card.
Not really solutions but things to consider .

 

[JollyJamma]

I'm almost certain that it's the RAM here. A mouse click and latency should not be affected by the HDD and Ryzen is picky with RAM.

I'd add some volts to the RAM, reduce the timings and check that it's actually compatible before cursing the CPU and motherboard. Samsung B-die RAM works best with AMD and Intel. AMD sees a massive performance increase with faster, low latency RAM.

 

[mradovan]

Nah man, but the approach clearly does need to change. Check for a RAM compatiblity list and check what you can find locally.
I'm with you on this 100%, there no reason why a system, especially a fresh install, shouldn't be be speedy enough on just a normal HDD. I have an SSD, switched out a WD Blue 7200RPM for a Samsung 850 Evo and whilst Windows boots like a dream many of the load pauses and little stutters I was expecting would now be wiped out are still there. Some stuff is definitely speedier yes, and I likely wouldn't go back now, but I really can't say it was all that much of an improvement, everything already happened snappily enough. Sure a SSD is better, but a fresh install on a traditional healthy HDD still shouldn't be running that poorly...heck I'm sure my C2Q ran better than you're describing. That healthy part is important though, make sure to check the drive out with HDD Sentinel or similar software, just a read and write test isn't the whole picture.

Thanks for that, bro - exactly my point... it's like a "sixth sense" after dealing with computers 24/7 your entire life, you just feel in your bones something's not quite right - but can't pinpoint what exactly.

I spotted one unusual thing . DDR4 2667Mhz Ram running at CL19 ?
That's an unusually slow latency . Is that a typo by chance ? Even entry level DDR4 2667 ram runs at CL16 .
If unsure check on the Ram's label.
Perhaps your BIOS settings are forcing it to CL19 . If that's the default it's very odd.

Your HDD speeds are actually in line with a non Intel controller. Naturally your other PC will feel faster thanks to the SSD.
I noticed on some laptops and desktops as soon as you install the graphics driver for the graphics card it start with those tiny lags you spoke about .
I'm actually experiencing the same thing on an AMD based laptop right now I'm troubleshooting . As soon as the graphics driver is installed it starts with those pauses and lags.

Often it's caused by the latest graphics driver with an older card.
Not really solutions but things to consider .

Thanks a lot for taking time and looking into it - appreciated!
Yup, that CL19 is definitely the weird part. But the guys I bought it from (an equivalent of Rebeltech, just this neck of woods) said "we sold hundreds AMD systems with that exact RAM, and it's working well - highly recommended". OK then, can't argue with that...
Yet here it is... from the horse's mouth: https://www.kingston.com/dataSheets/KVR26N19S8_8.pdf

Check another weird thing I discovered in pursuit of answers: DDR4 latency when tested with AMD (PassMark Software - Memory Latency with AMD CPUs Benchmark Charts) and Intel (PassMark Software - Memory Latency with Intel CPUs Benchmark Charts). According to this, it's quite normal having DDR4 latency in 70s and 80s ns on AMD systems (and feeling horrified after switching from Intel). So, I'm perhaps barking at the wrong tree after all. Will check the GPU drivers too - thanks for the tip!

I'm almost certain that it's the RAM here. A mouse click and latency should not be affected by the HDD and Ryzen is picky with RAM.

I'd add some volts to the RAM, reduce the timings and check that it's actually compatible before cursing the CPU and motherboard. Samsung B-die RAM works best with AMD and Intel. AMD sees a massive performance increase with faster, low latency RAM.

A-ha - I can sense a keen overclocker
I'm a noob when it comes to OC, and this mobo is like overclocker's paradise... I was just crapping myself about blowing it. Would you know, how far can I go? Is it just a matter of not booting, or can I actually damage the stick? The settings are not by voltage (or at least I didn't see it), but I can force just about any frequency and timing under the sun...

 

[JollyJamma]

@mradovan

10% overclock on most parts is safe. RAM can take far more than 10%. Set the voltage to manual at 1.35V.
That's terrible RAM you have. I've never seen such bad timings at such a slow clock speed. It'll also be a shit overclocker since it's value RAM.

Get some G.Skill 3200 B-Die such as this G.Skill F4-3200C14D-16GFX FlareX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4-3200MHz CL14 1.35V Desktop Memory - Wootware.

G.Skill is widely recognized as the most compatible with AMD (though other brands have been validated).

 

[Inkwe]

Can't really offer much specific help but I'm running a Ryzen 5 1600 on an MSI B350M Gaming Pro motherboard using 2x8GB 3000MHz Corsair Vengeance RAM. Also a Samsung 960 Evo NVMe as boot drive.

My system really runs well and boots very fast (take care to ensure you do a UEFI install, I managed to bugger it up somehow the first time). Don't give up on AMD yet, try the RAM and SSD upgrades first.

 

[mradovan]

Can't really offer much specific help but I'm running a Ryzen 5 1600 on an MSI B350M Gaming Pro motherboard using 2x8GB 3000MHz Corsair Vengeance RAM. Also a Samsung 960 Evo NVMe as boot drive.

My system really runs well and boots very fast (take care to ensure you do a UEFI install, I managed to bugger it up somehow the first time). Don't give up on AMD yet, try the RAM and SSD upgrades first.

Thanks for encouragement, bro!
No worries - I'm a stubborn old mule, not about to give up any time soon

It is probably UEFI... installed W8 from the DVD, then immediately upgraded to W10 - accepted the defaults all the way.

 

[mradovan]

@mradovan

10% overclock on most parts is safe. RAM can take far more than 10%. Set the voltage to manual at 1.35V.
That's terrible RAM you have. I've never seen such bad timings at such a slow clock speed. It'll also be a shit overclocker since it's value RAM.

Get some G.Skill 3200 B-Die such as this G.Skill F4-3200C14D-16GFX FlareX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4-3200MHz CL14 1.35V Desktop Memory - Wootware.

G.Skill is widely recognized as the most compatible with AMD (though other brands have been validated).

Hey, thanks for the tips!
Exciting stuff! I grew a pair and fired-up the Kingston stick.
The little rabid underdog ran out of steam above 3200MHz, though.
The highest stable setting was 3200 with 18-20-20-38, voltage climbed to 1.36 automatically.

Benchmark looking much better - read/write significantly up - latency down to 56.

At the same time, downgraded the GPU driver to one from Nov 2015 - as suggested by @Petester.

The system is now reasonably nippy - very happy!
Thanks again to everyone!

 

[Petester]

Cool bud. Not often things actually get resolved so lets hold thumbs

 

[JollyJamma]

Cool bud. Not often things actually get resolved so lets hold thumbs

Why hold thumbs when you can hold me?

I did call it though.
It just didn't make sense that he was experiencing lag during times when the hard drive was not in use and the OS is loaded into the RAM following a boot.

Edit: Take your Tcl time to 17 and your RAM voltage up to 1.4V. You may end up getting your latency down to 17-19-19-19 with a tiny overvolt.