How is this allowed ??? Racist at the highest level ??,

[Maximums_Rickimus]

Bee is our governments arm forcing the private sector to do what the private sector has failed to do for many years. AGAIN I will say it is a flawed system and merit trumps race anyday! But fact remains without a constructive solution nothing will change.

No where did I say I Agree with BEE .

And apartheid and BEE are vastly different the theory and application of BEE is a consequence of the former and will be treated as such .

You don't fully understand or appreciate the complexity of what was done to black people that is why you can throw around the comparison of a genocide to a equality blip on the larger picture of our timeline.

You are out of your depth and I suggest you become more learned and take your time to really feel the pain of our past maybe then you will be more humble in your outlook .

Regardless of all the debate you are still my south African brother and where or if I ever get the chance to help you or join you in anything constructive I will do so gladly .

Peace and love be upon you and all of you on carbonite

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realkingkam My apologies for being rude. You are entitled to your opinion and I do realize that my difference or indifference to your opinion may have resulted in me being angered by your insensitivity to recognizing racism for what it is.

I do however have a few last questions for you:
1. Do you deny that white people are being segregated and discriminated against?
2. Do you deny that white people are being murdered because of the color of their skin?
3. Do you deny that certain politicians are behind the murder and segregation of white people?
4. If your answer yes to either of these questions then please explain to me how it is any different to apartheid?

I would really like to get your opinion on these questions.

I do differ with your opinion that I am unlearned in the history of South Africa. I have spent a lot of time doing research of our history and what people believe to be true is quite different to the truth. Unfortunately the ANC and unfortunately some white people (I am white myself), admittedly, do tend to spread untruths from time to time. Many occurrences that happened during apartheid should not have happened but unfortunately you are way off par with connecting apartheid to genocide. Apartheid never ordered the mass killing of black people. And I do not agree with apartheid at all but facts are facts. What did occur was instances such as the prison riots and if one were to study it closely you would become aware that the whole instance was a result of one trigger happy youngster who fired his gun out of fear. Furthermore many activists were killed during apartheid and were sentenced to prison which was not right but it was never genocide. Do you know that many of these activists also ordered the planting of bombs that killed innocent people during apartheid? Edit: The genocide that did occur was mostly caused by the IFP and ANC (perhaps you need some schooling in history). Please read this link and see that I am not denying that a lot of black people were killed unjustly by white people but more were killed among political differences in the townships itself. LINK.

I do however connect with the pain that the black people have suffered under apartheid. It was wrong and I can only begin to understand what it must have felt like. Unfortunately I must agree that I do not have first hand experience and therefore I dearly sympathies with the people who experienced apartheid and its gruesomeness first hand.

I am thankful that you feel I am your brother as I also feel that you are my brother. I grew up in this country and so have you and we all live in its current circumstances. I would also join you in any constructive circumstance without hesitation.

I beg you to reconsider your stance and open your eyes to what is going on. Undoubtedly you must have experienced oppression and racism at some stage in your life and therefore I appeal to your better judgement and ask you to sympathize with others who are experiencing the same oppression and racism now. Let us stand together against the true evil that haunts this country of ours? Unjust politicians and their actions. Let us not defend their actions and justify it for them. Let us create awareness and beg them to answer for their actions? Let us demand what was promised to all of us. Let us work together to create better communities. Let us work together to suss out those who inspire segregation and racism and destroy them. It is not tied to race, to culture or to religion but to individuals and we need to make it clear that such behavior is wrong and must be accounted for regardless of the color of your skin, religion or beliefs. I believe this much can be achieved as much as Mandela believed it.

 

[Nikkel]

Which ever way the pendulum swings I always hate these threads as it's dog chasing its tail and the underlying hatred that both regimes in government caused always brings out the worst in us!

This shit is why our country will never move forward coz our past will forever haunt us.

 

[Flex]

This is why I would like to hear what parents say vs non parents and what the rest of us think too haha

I am no parent and still believe if someone was to rape another person, if they admit to it they should not be given a trial or sentance hearing. Instant death penalty. Why must all tax payers fund his food, clothes and prison cell ?

Am I the only one who feels this way ?

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Agree.
Got a 3 year old daughter
And it would be great if the parents can decide how the person must die.

But we are totally off the rails here now

 

[noa]

Agree.
Got a 3 year old daughter
And it would be great if the parents can decide how the person must die.

But we are totally off the rails here now

And if it came out the person didn't do it a year after his death? This is why we have courts and investigations.

 

[Flex]

And if it came out the person didn't do it a year after his death? This is why we have courts and investigations.

The situation the gent brought up where it was proven, the person admitted to being guilty and still wants a trial.
Even he attempted to and just touched her. Would not feel bad at all

 

[noa]

The situation the gent brought up where it was proven, the person admitted to being guilty and still wants a trial.
Even he attempted to and just touched her. Would not feel bad at all

He still gets a trial, everyone does.

 

[loonie00811]

jip wrongful accused is a reality ,lie detectors does not allways work so how would you be 100% sure it was him ?Do they only sentence you to death on facts and that is why it was scrapped ?

 

[saa044]

Which ever way the pendulum swings I always hate these threads as it's dog chasing its tail and the underlying hatred that both regimes in government caused always brings out the worst in us!

This shit is why our country will never move forward coz our past will forever haunt us.

This country will never heal mostly because people are living in the past. My daughter got blamed for Apartheid, she was born in 2004. I was told to move back to Europe. Get these ignorant fools(People blaming teens for Apartheid and telling a 40 year old to move back to Europe, who was born in Cape Town) to stop living in the past and rather look towards fixing this mess for the future.

 

[Flex]

He still gets a trial, everyone does.

Unfortunately yeah

 

[loonie00811]

If the person got framed ,then will be put to death will the family accept a sorry we were wrong .Or will they sue the crap out of state ?that the tax payer would pay

 

[noa]

Unfortunately yeah

I'm sure the government would love that they have a comrade in the fight against courts process.

 

[Angry5p1c3]

What did ya'll have for lunch to lazy to start a thread

 

[noa]

What did ya'll have for lunch to lazy to start a thread

Banana bread with THICC butter

 

[baltazhar]

Who knows where my taxes go?

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Nikkel]

This country will never heal mostly because people are living in the past. My daughter got blamed for Apartheid, she was born in 2004. I was told to move back to Europe. Get these ignorant fools(People blaming teens for Apartheid and telling a 40 year old to move back to Europe, who was born in Cape Town) to stop living in the past and rather look towards fixing this mess for the future.

It's fukn sad to say the least! I can cry all my life about how my great grand parents and their children got forcibly removed from District 6 and affluent areas in Paarl but I choose to fight my own battles by way of pushing on and forgetting about the past!

I always tell everyone including my wife and children after an argument that this is the last time we spoke about it and its in the past now so lets move forward from here...that's actually a rule in our house

Die ou mens gesegdes,,,moenie ou koeie uit die gat grawe nie

 

[Angry5p1c3]

Banana bread with THICC butter

slow down on that butter tiger

 

[RexTrueform]

This country will never heal mostly because people are living in the past. My daughter got blamed for Apartheid, she was born in 2004. I was told to move back to Europe. Get these ignorant fools(People blaming teens for Apartheid and telling a 40 year old to move back to Europe, who was born in Cape Town) to stop living in the past and rather look towards fixing this mess for the future.

This so much.

Why can't we have healthy discussion with the mindset that " hey we're actually not to blame for apartheid so we can have an opinion on racism without being labeled one."

If we all learnt to discuss these topics with the idea that, yes the past was wrong but it's not the past now so let's discuss it as though we want to improve rather than flinging shit all day long like proverbial apes.

 

[Nikkel]

This so much.

Why can't we have healthy discussion with the mindset that " hey we're actually not to blame for apartheid so we can have an opinion on racism without being labeled one."

If we all learnt to discuss these topics with the idea that, yes the past was wrong but it's not the past now so let's discuss it as though we want to improve rather than flinging shit all day long like proverbial apes.

Same as the fukn internet trolls

 

[SCHUMI4EVER]

Holy frogballs this thread has exploded now and the real hotheads have come out. Finally @shimmie 's and others worry has reared it's ugly head.

Anyways...

THUS, this thread's first 10 pages is not as great as you made them out to be on the quote of the first post I made in THIS thread.

Umm...he's not me. We may agree on some things but I promise not everything.

Let me stop you right there. If there's a better way then why aren't we doing that?

The exact same reason this thread is going nowhere.

? That doesn't seem like an answer. Because it's pointless? I don't see how finding and implementing a better way is ever pointless?

This is unless it requires the forming of about 10 dozen committees who all get paid handsomely for their time.

It is? Seems to me more like it's in the hands of corrupt government officials, and we won't say anything about what race the majority of them tend to be.

Private business far exceeds profiteering in government. Business Live today for a decent front page story.

Hmmm? Methinks that government profiteering just has less disclosure requirements and is better censored.
I'd like to be proven wrong though, it would make me feel good to know that government isn't yet THAT greedy.

Because they have the skills.
And I don't know about you but regardless of what colour I am as soon as I reach that sort of career height I save up and get the hell out. Maybe if there was less immigration from this hell-hole those stats would look different?

My reasoning exactly previously and current disadvantaged people DO NOT HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THESE SKILLS EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITIES. immigration has nothing to do with the current inequalities of our system

That's because their government has failed them and not provided them with the required infrastructure to obtain them. We could be A LOT further along to fixing this WITHOUT any sort of racial policies.

How can you say immigration doesn't play a role?
If a previously disadvantaged person has worked hard, come up through the system and attained a position of advantage and then decides to leave then according to statistics it never happened. In fact the statistics may have gotten worse without a single bit of racial prejudice occurring.

Contrary to that if we shove in any old candidate because of BEE they may be out of their depth. Which may cost the company growth and therefore jobs. Rather get the qualified person in (whatever colour they may be) and grow the company which means more jobs and then we don't even need BEE because with economic growth uneployment shrinks and everyone gets jobs regardless of who they may be.

Why do we have to attach a colour to the poor and impoverished? I agree they're the ones that need help but we shouldn't select them based on colour, we should select them according to ability to survive regardless of what colour they may be.

It is the reality of the situation. If you were born into the same situation you currently criticise your opinion would be different I can garuntee that.

I would hope not because that means I'm biased which I may be anyways even if I try not to be so, but then I'd be really biased.
Also I may or may not have been able to attain a position of advantage in last 30 years and I may have moved on, quite possibly literally. (as in immigrated).

First of all I know things were rotten but if you consider that slavery you've never looked at the history of slavery. Not saying you're wrong, just saying there are peoples all across history who would slap you in the face for calling that slavery.

Apartheid and SLAVERY are 2 different times in our history. What are you talking about? Both happened . And we suffer the consequences of both today.

Are you including all of Africa? Also unless you mean the consequences are equally unjust treatment I don't see how the one has a different effect on our economic situation than the other?
A slave has no access to infrastructure, someone deemed beneath those of another colour also has not access to that infrastructure. For the purposes of this discussion separating serves not purpose unless you want to promote anguish or guilt, neither of which is constructive.

But I agree yes there will be consequences. The consequences are lack of education and infrastructure. Something which virtually nothing has been done about in those 20 years. And this has lead to even greater heights of poverty now encompassing all races.

How do you rectify injustices of almost a century in under 20 (with the Zuma era attached taking 8 years of progress away from us)

By fixing the current mess. If things improve for everyone that obviously includes those currently living in poverty who were denied opportunity and infrastructure in the past.

Not by an eye for an eye practices. Not by a reversal of fortunes.

I am incredibly glad you can see the damage done over the past few years though. There's hope for us seeing eye to eye, without taking each other's eyes, yet.

All I'm saying is help the poor, not just those of a specific colour.

Majority is black . But I do agree

Perhaps, personally I feel saying that is a bit racist in itself, but I suppose the stats are skewed in that direction to the degree one can say that and not offend.

There is however a difference between a majority and the totality the YES program is practicing which caused all the outrage and this thread to begin with.

First of all what will that grand accomplish? or for that matter what will 40 grand accomplish if a bunch of us pitch in?
And more importantly what will that money be used for?

And second HOW DARE you assume that some or even many of us don't already give to charities and/or are involved in outreach programs or something else that's constructive!

Why are we discussing charity ECT on a race related thread on not one involving charity (with such passion and emotion ) that was my point.

Because you brought it up?

 

[MSI1104]

It's fukn sad to say the least! I can cry all my life about how my great grand parents and their children got forcibly removed from District 6 and affluent areas in Paarl but I choose to fight my own battles by way of pushing on and forgetting about the past!

I always tell everyone including my wife and children after an argument that this is the last time we spoke about it and its in the past now so lets move forward from here...that's actually a rule in our house

Die ou mens gesegdes,,,moenie ou koeie uit die gat grawe nie

I was 5 when we were removed from Aspeling street.. My dad has never considered a land claim. Says the Nats owed him him a house not the ANC so forget about it.. Not only white people are told to fokkof back to Europe. Been told to fokkof back to India on many occasion and this is by people on both sides of the spectrum (the first of my family to die in SA was in 1911). Last guy that told me that I asked him when his family came to the Western Cape and after he answered me I told him we here 50 years longer than him so he can fokkof first. My daughter gets asked if she was related to the Guptas on more than one occasion.. Had one idiot start shoutng in my face Guptas must fall, he fell after I smacked him.
This thread went crazy. Also @Greekking its racism(but according to the constitutional court as far back as 1994 its acceptable racism due to our countries history) but not at the highest level. At the highest level would be when you get dragged out of your house in the middle of the night tied to a bakkie and dragged down the road while your family watches.. and the cops are watching too because its a lekker show.

 

[carlovisser10]

I think as much as we as who consider it unfair for what we have to be taken away from us because of what some of our ancestors have done to the ancestors of those who are disadvantaged today because of that, the latter group feel it is unfair for them to be in a disadvantaged position because of what was done to their ancestors. The question then is actually what should be considered fair, and why? Do we consider it unfair for one group to have to carry the burden of responsibility for what their ancestors did? If so, do we then consider it fair for the other group to have to carry the burden of what was did to their ancestors? Who's responsibility is it eventually to rectify the injustice of the past?

 

[SCHUMI4EVER]

Agree.
Got a 3 year old daughter
And it would be great if the parents can decide how the person must die.

But we are totally off the rails here now

No just no. I know this is offtopic but I have to reply to this.

Then penalty of death is not a punishment, it's not a revenge fantasy.
It is purely the removal of a dangerous element from society and therefore method should under no circumstances be in the hands of those looking for revenge.

 

[noa]

The question then is actually what should be considered fair, and why?

Merit, merit is quantifiable.

 

[saa044]

I think as much as we as who consider it unfair for what we have to be taken away from us because of what some of our ancestors have done to the ancestors of those who are disadvantaged today because of that, the latter group feel it is unfair for them to be in a disadvantaged position because of what was done to their ancestors. The question then is actually what should be considered fair, and why? Do we consider it unfair for one group to have to carry the burden of responsibility for what their ancestors did? If so, do we then consider it fair for the other group to have to carry the burden of what was did to their ancestors? Who's responsibility is it eventually to rectify the injustice of the past?

Nobodies. The past is dead and buried. Those who still live in it and hate other races because of it are fools. People must rather focus on education and work experience.

 

[Greekking]

Time to close the thread again ? Hahaha

I think everyone should have their last say (closing arguements) and we can be done

I see most people share the same outcome thought. That it is racist. Yes it is legislation (which was written by racist people)

If legislation changed and tomorrow it said yes we can kill all whites in South Africa, that does not make it right.

The fact of the matter is, I am 30 years old. Born in 1988 and went to primary school after apartheid ended. (Not the effects of apartheid but apartheid itself) my best friend till Grade 4 was Black, he lest to another school. I then had a black best friend Ellie and Damian the Bulgerian. Until High school. My whole school career was rainbow nation so the kids growing up since last 1980s had a fair and equal education. Yes their parents were disadvantaged this is not the issue at hand. The problem is we cannot un do or go back in time and sort it out now.

Giving their kids and their kids kids an extra edge *while* disadvantaging another race is the problem. Give the guys free education, maybe 30% discount on Electricity and Fuel but say it ends in 20 years and then all shall be equal as created in the eyes of God (for those religious people here). Let everyone have the same rights and opportunities, the previously disadvantaged kids had their education and freedom. So now when it comes to jobs, give it to the correct person solely based on his interview, skills and adaptobility. Not to the person with the correct skin colour to sort out Government quota which they created.

Prime examples. Sport. S.A soccer has 2 or 3 white guys in the league and none in the National team on a constant Basis, I played with Bradley Grobler growing up. I am better than 70% of the guys playing currently but was not afforded the opportunity to play for national trials die to my skin colour ( yes I was told at 13 that because I am white I shouldn't try for national trials at youth level)

S.A cricket when based on skill we were always top 3 ... now to fill quota we have dropped and cannot play well when needed :/

S.A Rugby one of the tops and again fill quotas and we drop.

Yes there is the development level at kid level that the non whotes were not afforded but 20 years ago but not today.

SABC retrenching 1200 employees. SARS IT manager who knows nothing about computors. False certificates and hired to fill quotos does not work sadly. I do not care of the colour of the persons skin ,if he is better than me for the job then hire him.

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[Holywraith]

Intelligent discussion:
"Hey guys, look at this 'thing' that appeared in the news. Don't you think this policy goes against what our rainbow nation of equal equity is supposed to stand for? This represents the government very poorly to young white South Africans, who are likely to be made to feel like an enemy within their own country. Surely we shouldn't seek to sow discord amongst our own citizens so carelessly?

You know, on the other hand, I can appreciate where this is coming from. Non-whites have been marginalized in this country for many many years, and not just economically, but to a point where it has eroded their very self-worth, dignity, and burned them down to their very souls, so deeply in fact, that the roots are still sparking racial conflict to this very day, where the skew in economic equity still has not been balanced, and where families one or two generations down the line are still suffering the effects of the emotional and physical abuse, of a form of government that was racist not only in practice, but racist down to the foundational ink and paper that told us 'right' from 'wrong'.

And you know what, we still owe it to marginalized communities to level the playing field. To get them back on equal footing with the rest of us. But let's do it from grassroots. Let's use the economic advantage that we all are blessed with to uplift and educate communities, so we can strive for equality of opportunity, because equality of outcome is something that should never be legislated for."

Some of the discussion in this thread:
"Hey guys, look at this idiotic policy. This government is racist! They want us out from here? Fine, we'll go and then watch this place burn to the ground (or come back and encourage an even greater equity skew)."

Some of us here need to think a few meters beyond the periphery of the life we've known. The 5% discomfort you feel today from a government trying to redistribute equity from a history of blatant racism and economic imbalance does not outweigh the 50 odd years of soul-crushing, mandated racism that generations of people had to live through. Sure, the young inhabitants of this country have not had to live through that, but that is exactly the problem. Because we can't identify with what happened those many years ago, we can't understand the need to redress it today. Being born into relative privilege and then having some difficulty in finding a job is not the same as being born into poverty and struggling to get an education. The wrongs of the past are not righted overnight. So buckle up. And I mean that in the kindest way.

Closing points: Nobody is saying that you, today, are racist. The government is corrupt. Do not group identify. Set your own house in order before seeking to right the 'wrong' in the world. Have some empathy for your fellow man. These are complex issues, of which there are far too numerous individual circumstances to have general discussion as is happening in this thread.

On the point of silencing discussion - freedom of speech should never be silenced! However, that intelligent discussion rises to the top of comments full of group-identity rhetoric that obfuscates the complex underlying truths of the matter, is all anyone can hope for. Whether Carbonite is the right place for this is an entirely separate discussion.

 

[Nikkel]

I think as much as we as who consider it unfair for what we have to be taken away from us because of what some of our ancestors have done to the ancestors of those who are disadvantaged today because of that, the latter group feel it is unfair for them to be in a disadvantaged position because of what was done to their ancestors. The question then is actually what should be considered fair, and why? Do we consider it unfair for one group to have to carry the burden of responsibility for what their ancestors did? If so, do we then consider it fair for the other group to have to carry the burden of what was did to their ancestors? Who's responsibility is it eventually to rectify the injustice of the past?

Exactly this!!!

Poor Jan Van Riebeeck been dead for how long and he's still getting the blame LMFAO!

 

[carlovisser10]

Time to close the thread again ? Hahaha

Thanks for keeping it open this long. The debate is necessary, and even if it devolves because of emotions flaring up then that is something we can learn from too.

 

[TheRealRoko]

Intelligent discussion:
"Hey guys, look at this 'thing' that appeared in the news. Don't you think this policy goes against what our rainbow nation of equal equity is supposed to stand for? This represents the government very poorly to young white South Africans, who are likely to be made to feel like an enemy within their own country. Surely we shouldn't seek to sow discord amongst our own citizens so carelessly?

You know, on the other hand, I can appreciate where this is coming from. Non-whites have been marginalized in this country for many many years, and not just economically, but to a point where it has eroded their very self-worth, dignity, and burned them down to their very souls, so deeply in fact, that the roots are still sparking racial conflict to this very day, where the skew in economic equity still has not been balanced, and where families one or two generations down the line are still suffering the effects of the emotional and physical abuse, of a form of government that was racist not only in practice, but racist down to the foundational ink and paper that told us 'right' from 'wrong'.

And you know what, we still owe it to marginalized communities to level the playing field. To get them back on equal footing with the rest of us. But let's do it from grassroots. Let's use the economic advantage that we all are blessed with to uplift and educate communities, so we can strive for equality of opportunity, because equality of outcome is something that should never be legislated for."

Some of the discussion in this thread:
"Hey guys, look at this idiotic policy. This government is racist! They want us out from here? Fine, we'll go and then watch this place burn to the ground (or come back and encourage an even greater equity skew)."

Some of us here need to think a few meters beyond the periphery of the life we've known. The 5% discomfort you feel today from a government trying to redistribute equity from a history of blatant racism and economic imbalance does not outweigh the 50 odd years of soul-crushing, mandated racism that generations of people had to live through. Sure, the young inhabitants of this country have not had to live through that, but that is exactly the problem. Because we can't identify with what happened those many years ago, we can't understand the need to redress it today. Being born into relative privilege and then having some difficulty in finding a job is not the same as being born into poverty and struggling to get an education. The wrongs of the past are not righted overnight. So buckle up. And I mean that in the kindest way.

Closing points: Nobody is saying that you, today, are racist. The government is corrupt. Do not group identify. Set your own house in order before seeking to right the 'wrong' in the world. Have some empathy for your fellow man. These are complex issues, of which there are far too numerous individual circumstances to have general discussion as is happening in this thread.

On the point of silencing discussion - freedom of speech should never be silenced! However, that intelligent discussion rises to the top of comments full of group-identity rhetoric that obfuscates the complex underlying truths of the matter, is all anyone can hope for. Whether Carbonite is the right place for this is an entirely separate discussion.

Well formulated and food for thought. However I am not convinced that fighting the damages of inequality with more inequality is the answer. I also don't think I am qualified to just declare this and it is true. I imagine we actually need a group of very intelligent people to come together and analyse the possible outcomes of these decisions. From all the different perspectives and then put forward their arguments with why or why not this would/wouldn't be a good idea.

So yea, I get your point, but in the same breath an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind and this doesn't need to be a zero sum game. We can uplift certain groups without bringing down others no?

Also I wouldn't call it 5% discomfort... It isn't just a bit of discomfort, it is an attack on human rights, or what should be human rights. It is a lot more sinister than just a bit of discomfort.

 

[Greekking]

Who worked today ? I worked when went AWOL ... I wpuld like to keep it open but people are getting a little personal ,insolting and abusive.

This was not my intention. We can totally come together and work towards positive change in every sector. We just need to work together and put our differences a side

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