Clear my mind on Inverters

[TRINITRON]

I'd forgo the Hubble battery and budget more towards the inverters

Any specific reason why you want both a 3kva and a 5kva?

Different locations?

 

[Billionairebum]

If you're based in GP, I may recommend one pro installer.

PM me if keen.

Thanks, not looking for one right now was just interested for future. Will pm if I get to that point. Thank you

 

[Reegz]

@Confucius - are you in the solar game, as it were? Reseller/installer?

 

[RIK]

@Reegz One piece of advice, stay away from the likes of Hubble , Lifepower , all these newly introduced brands.

If you do end up buying them, then make sure you have it in writing that if anything goes wrong within the warranty period, then it's a straight swap for a new unit.

Of course, your installer must be registered with those brands, as approved installers (even this is very risky).

Easier said than done, but they will do all in their power to throw you to the curb.

Good luck bud.

 

[Confucius]

@Confucius - are you in the solar game, as it were? Reseller/installer?

Nope. Not a reseller or installer.

I do get some good deals though through friends and I have installed a few systems for family so technically, I could be called an installer. But no, I don’t want to get into that business. Don’t have the time. Happy to provide advise though

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

@Reegz One piece of advice, stay away from the likes of Hubble , Lifepower , all these newly introduced brands.

Why LifePower exactly?

 

[RIK]

Why LifePower exactly?

1. Know of someone (very close to me) who had a sour experience, and if didn't know any better, would have been taken for ride.
2. Very new in the market, distributed by a very tiny company. That's very high risk.

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

1. Know of someone (very close to me) who had a sour experience, and if didn't know any better, would have been taken for ride.
2. Very new in the market, distributed by a very tiny company. That's very high risk.

Interesting. So, one person had a bad experience and thus the product must be inferior. Your mind would be blown by the "bad experiences" many more than one have had with Pylontechs, FreedomWons, Revovs, Shotos, Naradas and the more mainstream brands that proliferate the market.
As somone that's moved from Shoto to Pylontech to Revov and then finally settled on LifePower, I can safely say a battery is a battery essentially. They all essentially share the same fundamental components in effectively the same construction. How you treat a battery matters way more than the sum of its parts I reckon (for the most part). Besides, part of the manufacturing process almost guarantees some of the product off the line are going to be subpar - no getting away from that inevitability. I've had a way better experience with the LifePower battery than all the rest.

 

[RIK]

Interesting. So, one person had a bad experience and thus the product must be inferior. Your mind would be blown by the "bad experiences" many more than one have had with Pylontechs, FreedomWons, Revovs, Shotos, Naradas and the more mainstream brands that proliferate the market.
As somone that's moved from Shoto to Pylontech to Revov and then finally settled on LifePower, I can safely say a battery is a battery essentially. They all essentially share the same fundamental components in effectively the same construction. How you treat a battery matters way more than the sum of its parts I reckon (for the most part). Besides, part of the manufacturing process almost guarantees some of the product off the line are going to be subpar - no getting away from that inevitability. I've had a way better experience with the LifePower battery than all the rest.

Good for you, and OP can take note and then make an informed decision.

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

Ok cool cool.

So this lack of clear information is driving me up the creak. Some of the installers I've spoken to say that the Luxpower and Growatt off-grids cannot power the essential load from PV.

Everyone has copy-pasted the same blurb on their websites so getting clear and correct information is neigh on impossible it seems!

There isn't really a lack of clear information - just seems like there's a lack of competent people. Bizarre an installer would think offgrids cannot PV power loads wired to the output. Even those old crappy Axpert and clone types with PWM charge controllers have that capability

 

[ettiene]

Interesting. So, one person had a bad experience and thus the product must be inferior. Your mind would be blown by the "bad experiences" many more than one have had with Pylontechs, FreedomWons, Revovs, Shotos, Naradas and the more mainstream brands that proliferate the market.
As somone that's moved from Shoto to Pylontech to Revov and then finally settled on LifePower, I can safely say a battery is a battery essentially. They all essentially share the same fundamental components in effectively the same construction. How you treat a battery matters way more than the sum of its parts I reckon (for the most part). Besides, part of the manufacturing process almost guarantees some of the product off the line are going to be subpar - no getting away from that inevitability. I've had a way better experience with the LifePower battery than all the rest.

What issues did you had that you recommend lifepower over freedom won?
One would think a local established brand will be better than a battery assembled by school children as part of their detention is some backroom in China.

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

What issues did you had that you recommend lifepower over freedom won?
One would think a local established brand will be better than a battery assembled by school children as part of their detention is some backroom in China.

Didn't recommend any battery over another. Just mentioned my observations based on my own personal use and experience.
One would and probably should think anything is better than something assembled by school children as part of their detention in some back room in China, but in my opinion one would be wrong.


The hardiest things are forged in the furnaces of hell I think, batteries are no exception. Besides, the core components of majority of the batteries are Chinese, no such thing as "local". Local in name and that's about all.
Most things worthwhile, I reckon, are assembled by school children as part of their detention in some back room in China. As it should be.

 

[Reegz]

Those Chinese school kids have a much better work ethic and attention to detail than a great majority of the SA workforce.

 

[ettiene]

Atleast you don't need to buy a plane ticket to go and break legs when you find out they put concrete in your battery.

 

[ettiene]

Also from what I can gather most issues with battery's is because people don't understand how they work. Mostly one cell go out of balance and then it trips the bms.
Then they say its a bad battery.
Or when they pylon tech is kak because it's rated for 0.5c only.
I may be wrong though, that why I asked what's your experience.

One thing I am sure that makes a difference is what cells is used inside, yes all is made in China even the local assembled ones. But one would think there is a difference between a A grade cell from reputable manufacturer and some old abused cells where the school children grind off the qr codes in some back room as part of their detention.
If you where to open these battries you may be surprised what's inside.

Saw some pictures of a N energy battery, it's sold as a 100ah battery, inside there is a 80A bms and a 80ah model sticker and it's fitted with cells that tested to 71ah.

 

[katlegowaq]

Sooner or later you will realize that many installers are absolutely useless. I say that based on the many people that I have spoken to since installing my system just under 3 years ago and provided advise to and i would get the same “the installer said this or that…”.

They will advise based on what they have installed or what they can make the most profit on.

When I wanted to install my system, I wanted a to do it myself so I read as much as I could around the SANS regulations, watched videos, and just researched as much as possible and everything I could find.

Once you have the knowledge, no one can bullshit you. I still see so many install pictures where AC and DC cables are in the same trunking, no earth-neutral bond, no battery disconnect, wrong / missing circuit breakers, incorrect battery cable size.

Bottom line, do your own research and don’t just trust installers. I have also seen so many Tom, Dick and Harry become installers over the past 3 years, some with zero electrical qualifications.

this comment about installers is so true, my pool guy messaged me saying he now does solar installations. everyone jumping on the gravy train

 

[Reegz]

So, after some thinking and a lot of math, it seems my current train of thought is to with the Luxpower inverter paired with a 5kw battery.

Given that the space is pretty cramped, I foresee the need to install in the garage and run cables through to the DB in the house.

This makes me very sad.

 

[shifttymike]

So thought I’d add my 2c here. Back in 2021 I bought a Homaya 850VA pure sine inverter and a Hubble S100 (second life 1.2kwh) for a whopping R7663.59
Initially it sat next to my wfh desk and kept my second screen, laptop and internet on. We’ve since moved into a house and being an EE, I fancied the idea of wiring it into the house proper. So now it runs:
- All the light circuits
- Internet (ONT, router, PoE switch and 4 APs)
- Security (alarm and electric fence)
- TV and HTS
- My wfh desk (laptop, screen and amp)
- Bedroom plugs on ATS

Went through a few iterations including an unnecessary EN bond and have spent more on wire and breakers than I did on the inverter itself but it’s still been really affordable (relatively speaking).
It works well up to stage 6 (battery charger only works at 15A) and has kept my family and guests comfortable for the last 2 years. The last extended outage we had, I measured 1.1kwh on the AC side before the inverter cut out so I’ve been really impressed with Hubble. The Homaya has been excellent too, we’ve pushed it way beyond what it’s meant for.

We’re upgrading now to a 2.5kva Axpert with a 2.4kwh LiFePower battery because
- It has a proper MPPT (plan on installing 2 panels)
- It can run fridges and ~1kw appliances for short periods (inrush would brown-out and/or trip Homaya)
- Charge is quicker and run time will be longer

I’m also selling my Homaya with an ELCB and 2 warning labels:
- ELCB will only work when inverter is plugged in, even if there’s no power, so don’t unplug if you want the extra protection
- Unplug physically before working on house wiring. The damn thing feeds power back through the neutral, 50VAC is still unpleasant

Basically, the TL;DR is that you don’t always need to spend big monies. With some effort, you’ll be surprised at how far you can stretch a basic inverter. Pls no modified sine kthxbai

 

[shifttymike]

Given that the space is pretty cramped, I foresee the need to install in the garage and run cables through to the DB in the house.

This makes me very sad.

Absolutely worth it. You do not want that noise in your living space.

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

Went through a few iterations including an unnecessary EN bond

Going on what you're saying, the bond doesn't seem unnecessary. Seems required.
Sounds very much like you have a connection that is both dangerous and not to code.
That's where the right tool for the job helps. A proper inverter would definitely help.
Are you perhaps getting an electrician for the upgrade?
Anyway, be safe. Life is too precious to be lost by a dodgy install 😁

 

[Confucius]

being an EE

I really hope that EE doesn’t mean electrical engineer and if it is, it would explain why South Africa is in the shit we are in.

unnecessary EN bond

It’s regulations. On the few installs that I’ve done, it was necessary. Speaking to an installer friend, every install (probably more than 50) required the bond as well.

Anyway.

 

[Reegz]

Absolutely worth it. You do not want that noise in your living space.

Yeah so looks like I a going to bite the bullet and install the setup in the garage. Better option for sure but bleh; extra costs.

When do we stop paying taxes so that we can recoup all these costs?

 

[Reegz]

I really hope that EE doesn’t mean electrical engineer and if it is, it would explain why South Africa is in the shit we are in.


It’s regulations. On the few installs that I’ve done, it was necessary. Speaking to an installer friend, every install (probably more than 50) required the bond as well.

Anyway.

School me on this Earth-neutral bond. Not sure I'm understanding it just yet.

 

[Qui_Illustrati]

It’s regulations. On the few installs that I’ve done, it was necessary. Speaking to an installer friend, every install (probably more than 50) required the bond as well.

Anyway.

My understanding is that it's also inverter dependent. True hybrid, most, offer native/built-in capability to address the requirement. Is see lots of debate about bonding requirements for Sunsynk and Deye and some other hybrids but I'm not too invested in that debate. Don't have either and don't think I'll ever purchase either. Off grid inverters are an entirely different story. I know my Solis offers seamless operation without the need for manual or relay bonding of any sort. Tested and verified on passthrough and on inverter.
I'm extremely paranoid about proper protection and invested in a decent EL tester. Overkill, but once a month I make it a point to test all plugs on bypass as well as when power is supplied without grid. Every couple months I whip out the multimeter, pop the covers on the DBs and test to see it all hasn't gone to shit as well.
Sad to see folks don't realise why EL is so important and how the rules and regulations are there to protect one from injury or death.

Kids have a tendency to bypass all mitigations in place for protection and I know they like sticking their fingers in holes. Peace of mind knowing if my kid every manages to get his finger in a plug socket the right mechanisms are in place to give him a short zap as opposed to making his heat stop.

 

[shifttymike]

Yip, that sure would explain it 🙄

I really hope that EE doesn’t mean electrical engineer and if it is, it would explain why South Africa is in the shit we are in.

 

[Confucius]

School me on this Earth-neutral bond. Not sure I'm understanding it just yet.

The neutral earth bond is actually required when the inverter is in islanding mode. The SANS 10142 regulations that I have (pretty old) states the following “where a system is designed to operate in islanding mode, a neutral-earth switch shall be installed that forms a neutral-earth bond for the duration of the islanding operating only.

In a TN-S system, where the earth, neutral and live enter a property as 3 separate conductors, you are not allowed to permanently bond the TN (earth and neutral). In this case, the earth and neutral is bonded somewhere on the street at the distribution box.

In a TN-C system, the earth and neutral is combined and one would then install an earth spike in the property to separate the TN

Islanding mode means that the live and the neutral of the system becomes disconnected from the grid side. In this case, the loads before the inverter are anyway isolated and will switch off so it doesn’t matter. So once this happens that bond of the street is no longer applicable since the neutral is now isolated .

What does matter though, is the loads after the inverter when in islanding mode.

In the case of most houses, the earth is coming from the council and is bonded to the neutral at the main distribution box somewhere on the street. That’s the reference for earth and the neutral will be close to zero volts because of the bond. So when the grid fails, the inverter is in islanding mode, meaning that the inverter output neutral and live is completely disconnected from the grid live and neutral which also means that the inverter neutral is not at the earth reference of almost zero volts anymore and the live also has no reference.

When I did my install, I had 230v between live and neutral, and around 120v between earth and neutral and 120v between earth and live. So the earth-neutral bond is used to bring the inverter output neutral back to earth reference of 0V.

Just a note that I am talking about bonding the load side (after the inverter) neutral to the earth only if and when you are in islanding mode.

To test, take a multimeter and disconnect the grid and then test the voltage between live and earth (should be ~220-240V) and between neutral and earth should be close to 0V.

I’ve tested this on sunsynk, deye and luxpower and all need them. Victron has the binding internal and will give an error if the bond isn’t working.

 

[Confucius]

verified on passthrough

On passthrough it isn’t a problem since the grid neutral will be bonded anyway. It’s only a problem in islanding mode.

Sunsynk basically has an internal relay that energizers when it detects islanding and this is then used to drive an external bigger relay / contactor to actually bond the neutral-earth. Remember, the bonding relay needs to be the same capacity as the worst case fault current so in the case of a 5kw inverter, it’s about 25A

 

[Reegz]

Found this is to be a good description of what islanding is; seeing as it's another new term to me.

Islanding: what is it and how to protect from it?

Islanding is an unsafe condition in which a distributed generator continues to supply power to the grid while the electric utility is down....

sinovoltaics.com

 

[CheesePuff]

in short one can supply to no non-essential on any inverter as long as you limit the amount of amps by install in a time based delay and a over load based divert on none electronic loads (there is limits to cheaper units on max amps pass through ) victron has alot of options in this area

In a TN-Cs systems with most houses would be done in today is basically the earth and neutral is combined and then the split into earth and neutral inside the house's main munic supply box. So this means Earth-neutral permanent bond for ppl that don't know this is actually not up and up strictly by law but its probably a lessor evil then killing somebody inside the house this is needed on lux and deye and sunsynk * sunsynk has an island mode relay that one can program for a relay to bond where units like victron have these installed since for ever the earth neutral helps for when you go off grid that you don't have 120v between neutral a.k.a earth split phase or USA power. if you do have the 120v issue your earth leakage wont work . ps yes you can charge 120v items like this.

on a side note if one decide to do a earth neutral bond this must be specified on the coc and its location as wel as at the munic inlet and dbs as the next sparky wont know of this and this can make it that a coc reading reads better then what it should.


in basic terms is you earth neutral bond you must supply your own earth as regulation stated you should

earth neutral bond can be tested with a loop tester this will give you info like how good the neutral bond is at the kiosk as it will give you the readings of how much amps is needed for you main breaker to disconnect as a earth leakage ( yes dis is way ppl want to sell double pole breakers)

for the diyers that don't know spd type 2s are needed now for insurance payouts.


the interesting part for me is that so many of the cheaper units on the market does not check for any wire mistakes in the houses wiring or mistake that the install could have made , there just happy you have found a home......

on victron we have fault codes for everything and they refuses to turn on if one does not meet the requirements or bypass the errors.

invert mode no neutral earth relay bond turn off + error ( i have only seen this like 4 times no idea how ppl break these unless the have a swopped earth neutral in the house ( sparkies are suppose to check for this when doing a coc every 365 days or if a tenant moves out )


swap l-n input turn off + error
input neutral output neutral combined turn off + error ( on single Phase this is not right )
output neutral combined to earth turn off + error ( on single Phase this is not right )
mistake normally at lights can cause a fire under heavy load