SSDs in laptops

DevillEars · Oct 26, 2011

mons said:
Im not sure if I wanna put these into my work laptops or sell it yet
<snipped>
2. 2 x OCZ Vertex 3 120

Putting a Vertex 3 into a laptop is a bit like putting a V12 Ferrari engine into a Fiat 500 and running it on low octane gas...

It'll work, but what a waste of a Ferrari V12...

Oj0 · Oct 26, 2011

Re: SSDs

I don't know if I can agree with you. Storage is normally the only thing keeping a laptop behind. It's like putting your Ferrari engine into a Fiat 500 because you want something fast but don't want to pay through your teeth for insurance. Or something like that.

must4rdgas · Oct 27, 2011

Oj0 said:
I don't know if I can agree with you. Storage is normally the only thing keeping a laptop behind. It's like putting your Ferrari engine into a Fiat 500 because you want something fast but don't want to pay through your teeth for insurance. Or something like that.

I think you misunderstand the analogy.

DevillEars · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Oj0 said:
<snipped>
Storage (performance) is normally the only thing keeping a laptop behind.
<snipped>

No argument with that statement as it stands, if you add the word "performance" as shown.

Where argument creeps in is the interpretation that "storage" is defined as just the drive and any impact of the storage controller and link to chipset are excluded from the discussion.

"Storage Performance" is dictated to be the combination of performance capabilities of:

The drive itself (access times & transfer rates)
The I/O controller (bandwidth)
Controller:Chipset "pipe" (bandwidth)

If we accept these, then taking 1) in isolation and upgrading to a SATA 6G drive capable of between 500 & 550MB/sec (write/read) is one thing but it ignores the constraints imposed by 2) and 3).

If the I/O controller is, for example, a SATA 3G device (50% of a SATA 6G unit) and the controller:chipset "pipe" is a single lane implementation - both of these with bandwidth capabilities of ~50% of that of the Vertex 3, then the Vertex 3 will only perform up to the level of the lowest bandwidth device in the chain.

The bottom line is, if you have a SATA 3G controller, don't waste money on a SATA 6G drive and, even if you do have a SATA 6G controller but your "pipe" width from controller to chipset is a single PCIe electrical lane, then don't waste money on a SATA 6G drive either.

So, the analogy comprised:

a) Ferrari engine (Vertex 3 SATA 6G high-performance SSD)
b) Fiat 500 (laptop I/O controller)
c) Low-Octane Gas (controller:chipset pipe width)

Yes, there may be some high-end gaming laptops that have been designed with SATA 6G controllers and PCIe switches to permit multi-lane controller:chipset pipes, but these are few and far between and cost an arm and a leg.

Your average common or garden laptop has a Fiat 500 with a tankful of low-octane fuel and is usually found to have a two-pot Fiat 500 engine putt-putting away at the rear (at 5400rpm?)...

Oj0 · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Do you realise that 99% of the time your sequential speeds have no real world impact as:

1. Almost nothing relies on insanely long sequential reads
2. Sequential writes will require another device with at least equal read speeds

SSDs give most of the benefit through fast, small reads and writes as well as access times.

DevillEars · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Oj0 said:
Do you realise that 99% of the time your sequential speeds have no real world impact as:

1. Almost nothing relies on insanely long sequential reads
2. Sequential writes will require another device with at least equal read speeds

SSDs give most of the benefit through fast, small reads and writes as well as access times.

Actually, I DO realise that...

When comparing bandwidth figures for controllers & pipes, sequential read speeds are the closest drive spec to bandwidth if trying to compare apples with apples.

I'm not arguing that laptops would NOT benefit from the use of an 2.5" SSD instead of a 2.5" 5400rpm HDD.

What I am trying to get across is that sticking a SATA 6G SSD into laptop is a waste of the SSD (unless you have one and don't know what to do with it). If you're looking to buy an SSD for a laptop then don't opt for a costly SATA 6G SSD when all you need (and all you'll get) is SATA 3G performance levels by buying a less costly SATA 3G SSD.

The effect on the performance of the laptop will be the same for less cash.

Reneil · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

SPAM.. Thread hijack.. OT.. where are the Mods??

Oh haai Oj0

Oj0 · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Oh crud, I didn't even realise this was a sale thread. Hang ten, I'm going to split the thread...

Oj0 · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

DevillEars said:
Actually, I DO realise that...

When comparing bandwidth figures for controllers & pipes, sequential read speeds are the closest drive spec to bandwidth if trying to compare apples with apples.

I'm not arguing that laptops would NOT benefit from the use of an 2.5" SSD instead of a 2.5" 5400rpm HDD.

What I am trying to get across is that sticking a SATA 6G SSD into laptop is a waste of the SSD (unless you have one and don't know what to do with it). If you're looking to buy an SSD for a laptop then don't opt for a costly SATA 6G SSD when all you need (and all you'll get) is SATA 3G performance levels by buying a less costly SATA 3G SSD.

The effect on the performance of the laptop will be the same for less cash.

SATA 3G controllers are being phased out, look at hard drives. It's getting difficult to buy a 1 or 2TB 5400RPM drive which ISN'T SATA 6G.

lowracer · Oct 27, 2011

It would depend on the laptop

putting an ssd in one of the single core laptops or plain dual core laptops, will most likely be a waste for 95% of the laptops. for the others it depends on the apps you run

At work I'm using a dell 6410 with decent I7 processor. (the newer 6420 are using a sandy bridge processor) having an SSD will most likely make a huge difference for me while compiling, running a local instance of SQL server. but for the other colleagues running a similiar spec computer just with an I5 and less memory, but mostly doing email, documents, webapps, it will most likely be a complete waste

so yeah, even most desktop users with ssds just having windows starting quicker will also be a waste. but all of that users are driving volumes, and that will make it more cost effective in the long run

must4rdgas · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Oj0 said:
SATA 3G controllers are being phased out, look at hard drives. It's getting difficult to buy a 1 or 2TB 5400RPM drive which ISN'T SATA 6G.

Doh. Sublime retort there.

PHalanKS · Oct 27, 2011

What about other things like power consumption, heat dissipation, drop resistance, hardware full disk encryption, etc?

PHalanKS · Oct 27, 2011

Was considering one of these: VPCCB15FG : C Series : VAIO™ Notebook & Computer : Sony South Africa for the gf (possibly in black) with an SSD about 120/128GB.
According to this page (Intel® HM65 Express Chipset) the chipset provides 2 sata 6gb/s ports so presumably one is used for the HDD

I don't really know SSD's so if an OCZ vertex 3 is overkill please let me know.
And yes it is for faster boot times, app opens etc etc. It's only to be used for work so probably even 30GB would be sufficient.

DevillEars · Oct 27, 2011

Re: SSDs

Oj0 said:
SATA 3G controllers are being phased out, look at hard drives. It's getting difficult to buy a 1 or 2TB 5400RPM drive which ISN'T SATA 6G.

Misunderstanding building here....

I was not referring to the controller logic built into the drives, but the SATA I/O controller(s) on the motherboard.

On LGA1156 boards, the P55 chipset contained a 6-port SATA 3G controller and NO SATA 6G controller, which is why mobo manufacturers added 3rd party SATA 6G controllers to the mobo (e.g. Marvell SE9128 as used on some Asus P7P55-series boards).
On LGA1366 boards, a similar situation exists.

With the release of LGA1155 socket set, Intel's P67/Z68 platform control hubs (PCH) offered a 4-port SATA 3G controller PLUS a 2-port SATA 6G controller within the PCH chipset. Some boards (e.g. Asus P8P67 Deluxe) also add a 3rd party SATA 6G controller on the mobo to add another 2 x SATA 6G ports.

Next year will see the release of Intel's Pattsburg/LGA2011 chipset/mobo family which - for the high-end desktop user - will offer 6 x SATA 6G ports on the PCH, but the Ivy Bridge specs are not as aspirational. So - for the current Sandy Bridge user, SATA 3G will be around for a while - on the motherboard on-board controller front.

Yes - the disk manufacturers will (have?) all switch to SATA 6G on-drive controllers (which are backward compatible with SATA 3G I/O on-board controllers) - purely from a perspective of standardisation and manufacturing run volumes.

The on-motherboard SATA controller is the bandwidth limiting aspect as defined in the SATA 3G/6G specifications regarding system bandwidth - not individual drive bandwidth.

Yes - both controllers (on-mobo & on-drive) need to be to the SATA 6G spec for full performance, but the on-mobo controllers used in laptops have not kept pace with the desktop motherboards in terms of PCH usage, so have lagged even further behind the drive manufacturers than for desktops.

Hence the Ferrari in a Fiat analogy...

yourang · Oct 27, 2011

OCZ Vertex 3 120GB Review

sata 6g laptops does fine,does about 480mbs on crystal benchmark.

DevillEars · Oct 27, 2011

PHalanKS said:
Was considering one of these: VPCCB15FG : C Series : VAIO™ Notebook & Computer : Sony South Africa for the gf (possibly in black) with an SSD about 120/128GB.
According to this page (Intel® HM65 Express Chipset) the chipset provides 2 sata 6gb/s ports so presumably one is used for the HDD
I don't really know SSD's so if an OCZ vertex 3 is overkill please let me know.
And yes it is for faster boot times, app opens etc etc. It's only to be used for work so probably even 30GB would be sufficient.

Intel's HM55 chipset tends to dominate the affordable laptop population and it only supports SATA 3G.

The HM65 is the high-end laptop chipset and - as you noted - supports 2 x SATA 6G ports.

The HM55 was released with the 1st generation mobile Core i3/5/7 CPUs and is analogous to the H/P55 chipsets in LGA1156 desktop environment.
The HM65 is designed for 2nd generation mobile Core i3/5/7 CPUs and is analogous to the H/P67 chipsets in the LGA1155 desktop environment.

In the not-too-long term, SATA 3G on-board controllers will be replaced by SATA 6G on-board controllers but these will also provide backward compatibility support for SATA 3G drives

The timescale is probably going to depend on Intel/AMD as the chipset R&D is under their control (Intel seem to be lagging behind AMD when it comes to number of SATA 6G ports supported by chipset).

Currently, Intel's chipset roadmap shows the 7-series Panther Point chipsets (targeted for Ivy Bridge CPUs) as staying with the current 2 x 6G & 4 x 3G SATA support.

Only the X79 (Pattsburg) chipset (targeted at LGA2011 Waimea Bay CPUs) shows a shift in balance between SATA 6G (6 x ports) and SATA 3G (4 x ports)

Ivy Bridge CPUs will, effectively, be a 22nm Die Shrink of the current Sandy Bridge CPUs and the matching Panther Point chipsets will be the first Intel PCH chipsets to offer USB 3.0 native support.

So, for the Sandy Bridge replacement (Ivy Bridge) the balance between SATA 6G and SATA 3G will remain unchanged, but with it will come PCIe 3.0 support with more and faster lanes.

Isn't Nature wonderful?

JollyJamma · Oct 27, 2011

You guys do know that there's a hybrid drive with a 4gig SSD on top of a 500gig mobile drive for R999 retail?

Best of both worlds really.

jjay · Oct 28, 2011

JollyJamma said:
You guys do know that there's a hybrid drive with a 4gig SSD on top of a 500gig mobile drive for R999 retail?

Best of both worlds really.

You can basically do nothing with 4gigs tho bud. I got a 60gig which is almost too small.

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

Do you know how hybrid drives work? You don't actually install anything to the SSD part of it, it acts as a cache for the platters. But yes, 4GB is too small, and tests have found that even Intel's 20GB SLC SSD designed purely with Smart Response Technology in mind proved to be too little for efficient caching.

jjay · Oct 28, 2011

Oj0 said:
Do you know how hybrid drives work? You don't actually install anything to the SSD part of it, it acts as a cache for the platters. But yes, 4GB is too small, and tests have found that even Intel's 20GB SLC SSD designed purely with Smart Response Technology in mind proved to be too little for efficient caching.

Yeah also read that the intel one is also too small. For development with SQL & Visual Studio ssd's rock I must say

JollyJamma · Oct 28, 2011

Oj0 said:
Do you know how hybrid drives work? You don't actually install anything to the SSD part of it, it acts as a cache for the platters. But yes, 4GB is too small, and tests have found that even Intel's 20GB SLC SSD designed purely with Smart Response Technology in mind proved to be too little for efficient caching.

What amount is efficient for caching?

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

Not 20GB and CERTAINLY not 4GB. Probably around the 40GB range.

Or in other words, forget caching and just buy a bloody SSD

JollyJamma · Oct 28, 2011

I hear you but I still like having a decent capacity for my laptop. What if I want to abuse my mates uncapped line and update all my STEAM programs?

I get SSD and I think they are the best thing to happen to computers since they stopped being beige all the time but they are too expensive for mere mortals to purchase.

Granted in a few years time people will be looking back and laughing that you paid R5000 for a 256gig SSD that could only do XYZ speeds.

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

If you're on a gaming laptop it probably has the capability of adding a second drive. Slap a 500GB into the second bay and there you go.

JollyJamma · Oct 28, 2011

Well I don't. It's a Dell Studio 1558 with mild gaming ability (portal 2 runs well until the machine overheats at the mo).

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

Then you're SOL

You buy according to your needs, I'm not even sure why we're having this argument? The topic is "Is it worth putting a SATA 3 SSD in a laptop?", how did we get to where we are?

JollyJamma · Oct 28, 2011

We are exploring all options. You just proved that caching SSD doesn't work as well as it should and I just proved that laptop gaming is pretty much futile.

We all just proved that SSD is great for laptops just it's not perfect.

and on that bombshell...

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

And on that bombshell we haven't proved a thing. All of my games are installed on my SSD at home, which is a 120GB with over 50GB free. An 80GB SSD is more than enough for your gaming needs. What you've proved is that if you want to carry your entire Steam collection around with you, you need to get out more

Ch@pS · Oct 28, 2011

Oj0 said:
And on that bombshell we haven't proved a thing. All of my games are installed on my SSD at home, which is a 120GB with over 50GB free. An 80GB SSD is more than enough for your gaming needs. What you've proved is that if you want to carry your entire Steam collection around with you, you need to get out more

An 80GB SSD won't fit half of my non steam games collection, and if we throw steam into the mix...

It depends what you want from a gaming laptop. If you want it as an ancillary device, then by all means slap a 120GB SSD in and load on your most played LAN games. If however you want a desktop replacement notebook that does everything in one, you'll have to provision for steam. 1TB SSD raid or bust in that case. (Or rather 120GB SSD as primary drive 1TB HDD as secondary for those of us with a budget)

Also, as a user of an ultraportable Lenovo laptop with a 64GB SSD in, there is no comparison. It should be a crime selling a laptop without an SSD.

Oj0 · Oct 28, 2011

Ch@pS said:
It should be a crime selling a laptop without an SSD.

AGREED! Anyway, if you want your entire game collection with you, you go the DTR route which will almost CERTAINLY have a bay for a second drive.

SSDs in laptops

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