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What to do when you've really hit rock bottom.

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Jer1cho

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Then on the flip-side for anyone who perhaps felt like reading this who isn't religious... look outside and see what the world is turning into, due to people not following the 10 commandments... if it's fictitious, why are things so bad all of a sudden? Why is the world being controlled by evil?

We are living in the most peaceful time in human history. What is bad all of a sudden? There will always be problems in the world, but at least we aren't being stoned for having different world-views. The ten commandments are not worth mentioning. Only 3/ borderline 4 are even useful, and you need to have 'Don't kill or' Don't steal written down in order for you to do it, then you are morally corrupt already. The rest of the commandments are nothing but self-loving/jealous/insecure rules for an insecure god. I mean: I am the Lord thy God! Thou shalt have no other Gods but me! Really? Like really really? The creator of all of the universe and everything in it is petty and insecure? Please. Like others have said. Don't be doos. That's all you need to know.

So what if you don't believe in God... what harm can it do, to try and live in a good manner? Yes, you might not kill anyone, but are you truly faithful to your wife? Do you watch porn instead of sharing true love and passion with your wife? Do you lie daily? Do you steal (be that R1 or R1mil)? There are a billion good things that can come from living your life based on any of the religions of TRUE peace and love, so why not challenge yourself and give it a try? Yes, we go through tough times... but in the end it's part of life, no one is free from hurt and sadness in this life, but look around at others and instead of being selfish, help others too... why must you own a R5mil house, drive 10 cars, own a R200k computer, etc, when others are out there with nothing.

These small changes on a daily basis add up to inner peace and you will be blessed for your efforts.

Still don't understand why god is needed for this? Are you really that arrogant to think you cannot REALLY be a PROPER good person if you don't have some god figure to love and worship? Get off your high horse. I don't need hocus pocus 101 to tell me not to be a doos or be faithful to my wife.

I'm happy knowing life is not a stop gap for an all you can worship buffet. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be a doos.
 
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Flex

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My wife and I found God through the Rastafari culture/movement

I would like to know more about this personally. I am fascinated by beliefs and religions. How did you come by this and get involved? I will read my self what it entails exactly.

My parents have been in a religion rut for very long. They both used to be VERY religious and church going Christians. My dad studied demonology as well. He got run over by a Taxi, and dragged underneath it for kms. And that changed his view on humanity and how God could let something like that happen. Another thing that bothers them and made them doubt their faith was that why would God allow for harm to come across children? Why allow a child of 2 years old to get cancer? What good comes out of that? What did that child do to deserve that?
We went to a meditation retreat with my mom recently. They did not really teach you much about the Buddhist religion, but more of the philosophy. Do good and good will come your way. That is the core of it. Instead of being scared of God, adore and be in awe of God.
I am honestly at a cross road, and not sure where how strong my faith is and where I am spiritually and that is why I am so curious about other religions and beliefs I guess. Feels like something is missing and trying to find that something again
 

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I'm just going to leave this here, if any of the religious folk can disprove this logic, I would be very pleased.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Edit: I wanted to add, OP if you are interested in learning JS/Angular, I can possibly hook you up with some udemy courses.
 
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Flex

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I'm just going to leave this here, if anyone can explain this to me that would be great.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

That ties is very well with my comment about why would God allow a 2 year old child to get cancer.
 

charizarding

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I'm just going to leave this here, if any of the religious folk can disprove this logic, I would be very pleased.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Sure, i will help

God works in mysterious ways that us humans can't even fathom.
 

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Right, so I don't have time to read all this stuff but I will as well as all the subsequent pages.

But one thing caught my eyes early on: Repossession of cars

Here's how that works, they take the car, the fob it off to someone for an insignificant portion of its value and then your debts REMAINS at initial value of the car, less any repayments you've made, less what they sold it for.

For instance let's say you have a R200 000 car which you've managed to make R40 000 in repayments on. They re-possess it and sell it for R60 000. YOU STILL OWE THEM R100 000 AND NOW HAVE NO CAR. Taking the car does not fully off-set the debt.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but you need to be aware of this.

Based on what I learned in insolvent estates a few years back the best thing to do is declare insolvency early rather than living in denial and just careening toward it being forced on you. This way a liquidator is appointed and assets are sold off for a lot closer to fair value to cover as much of the debt as possible. Thereafter debt repayments are controlled to ensure minimum living standards can be kept up and anything extra automatically goes to paying off the outstanding debts at newly agreed upon terms between the liquidator and the creditors. It's not nice living with someone else controlling your life. But it's even less nice to just constantly be accosted from all sides and have everyone demanding what you don't have in a constantly worsening downward spiral.
The liquidator acts as an intermediary between the insolvent person and their creditors which means the insolvent person can just get on with the business of trying to return to solvency.



Not sure whether all of this applies or even whether I remember it all correctly or whether it has already been mentioned, but I feel it's food for thought nonetheless


Insolvency lawyer here.

80% of the above is pretty much correct.

However liquidation is for companies and sequestration is for individuals. In the case of sequestration a trustee is a appointed not a liquidator (different powers).

Placing yourself in sequestration can have huge ramifications on your future employment prospects, credit, education and in very odd circumstances even have you end up in jail if you do not comply. Sequestration should only be used as a final solution and after talking to a reputable attorney. DO NOT RUSH INTO IT.

From the grand tale of the OP though i don't think he is in debt and is pretty young. Young people, in general, can avoid sequestration pretty easily.

It appears that OP has more a problem of not being able to fund his education and has had a serious paradigm shift with regards to religion.

My advice: Focus on building a skill set (welding, programming etc) and start making money. Keep praying or whatever you need to do but the most important thing is to take practical hardworking steps forward. Read everything everyone else finds completely boring as well. If its a STEM, LAW or TAX textbook, pick it up and you already on your way.

I'm not a religious person in the least, but I've been forced to sit through enough Catholic mass. An old church joke about the lady stuck on her roof during a flood always stuck with me. When a boat rocked up to save her she said "Dont worry about me, God will save me." and she ends up dead at the pearly gates and asks "why did God not save me?", St Peter responded "He sent you a boat tit".

You have to apply yourself. No ones going to give you a golden ticket.
 
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Li0n_za

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I believe your explanation would then fall under option 4: "Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
 
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charizarding

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I believe your explanation would then fall under option 4 then: "Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I 100% understand what you are saying. However I've been in enough debates with religious people to understand that sometimes you just have to let people do their own thing.

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo[/video]
 
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Toi

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Insolvency lawyer here.

80% of the above is pretty much correct.

However liquidation is for companies and sequestration is for individuals. In the case of sequestration a trustee is a appointed not a liquidator (different powers).

Placing yourself in sequestration can have huge ramifications on your future employment prospects, credit, education and in very odd circumstances even have you end up in jail if you do not comply. Sequestration should only be used as a final solution and after talking to a reputable attorney. DO NOT RUSH INTO IT.

From the grand tale of the OP though i don't think he is in debt and is pretty young. Young people, in general, can avoid sequestration pretty easily.

It appears that OP has more a problem of not being able to fund his education and has had a serious paradigm shift with regards to religion.

My advice: Focus on building a skill set (welding, programming etc) and start making money. Keep praying or whatever you need to do but the most important thing is to take practical hardworking steps forward. Read everything everyone else find completely boring as well. If its a STEM, LAW or TAX textbook, pick it up and you already on your way.

:cower: sounds hectic.

If you don't mind me asking, what isare your options then if you have debt that you're unable to repay?
 

megustav

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I should maybe not reply to this post, but I will try to respond in a respectful and constructive manner as to give my experience in life with religion and way of thinking. If you feel attacked/that I crossed the line, please delete my post and I will not post in this thread again. I was brought up religiously in a very religious family - my grandpa was also a deacon at the church etc. I went to Sunday school and did my "belydenis van geloof" in Matric and it was a huge thing where my whole family attended and all the jazz. Reason or stating this is just to show I know the bible, Christianity and what it entails very well. My path to being a-religious was a long and slow one, but in my mind a logical one.

Then on the flip-side for anyone who perhaps felt like reading this who isn't religious... look outside and see what the world is turning into, due to people not following the 10 commandments... if it's fictitious, why are things so bad all of a sudden?

The world has always been a shit place - it is not bad all of a sudden; People are now more connected than ever due to internet and social media, and information is more freely available than it ever was. Because of this the world seems like a shittier place. I can promise you things are much better than they were during WWII or medieval times.

I will not get into the details of any religion, but rather give a wide view of religion as I see it. To expect a world with thousands of religions to all follow one specific one and its set of rules or "the whole world is doomed" is ludicrous. The religion you adopt is usually based on your culture or place of upbringing. Are you willing to tell me that the whole of India is wrong? And that they all are going to hell? (Or that if they are correct, everyone else is doomed?) That is a very narrow way of thinking and does not change anything. How would you feel if a hindu comes to your house only to tell you what you believe is wrong, and that their god(s) are the only true god(s).

The world is shit because people are assholes. Period. I do however agree that there are some principles in the bible that instill in people is good, but those morals and principles are also just a guide to not being an asshole. I have met "Christians" that are the scum of the earth and have met agnostics, atheists, Muslims, *insert relevant religion here that are the some of the kind hearted people I have met.

I will never judge anyone on the religion that they choose to practice, their sexual orientation, skin colour or whatever, I judge you on whether you are a prick or not. Simple as that. I also believe that religion can be good for people, give their live purpose, make them happy, and if your chosen religion can do that for you, I am happy for you (not sarcastic). But on the flip side so many wrong in this world is done with religion as the justification, that one cannot ignore it. If you use your religion (regardless of what it is) to persecute people based on their sexual orientation, skin colour or whatever or commit terrorism and kill thousands people in the name of your god, you can take your religion and fuck off.


Why is the world being controlled by evil?

Because evil people have no morals and boundaries and are generally psychopaths or sociopaths. They will step on everyone and anything to get what they want without regard to anyone else.

So what if you don't believe in God... what harm can it do

Too many people only believe in the religion they were brought up in due to social pressure and in severe cases this is how radical groups brainwash members. My biggest gripe with Christianity was the "fear of hell" thing - I have spoken to so many people that only "believe" because they are afraid of going to hell. That is also not right. If I were to "come out" as non religious to my family, I would be cast aside and crucified (Sorry for the pun - I had to) and it could tear our whole family apart. Just to give context, a person in my family does missionary work in places like yemen where she would be killed if caught.

All I am trying to say is it can do a lot of harm whether you believe or not believe depending on the factors.

, to try and live in a good manner? Yes, you might not kill anyone, but are you truly faithful to your wife? Do you watch porn instead of sharing true love and passion with your wife? Do you lie daily? Do you steal (be that R1 or R1mil)? There are a billion good things that can come from living your life based on any of the religions of TRUE peace and love, so why not challenge yourself and give it a try?

You do not need religion to be a good person. You need morals and values. Religion and morals/values are not mutually exclusive.

These small changes on a daily basis add up to inner peace and you will be blessed for your efforts.

If that is your choice and you were not brainwashed, yes I agree with you.
 
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carlovisser10

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I'd like to say some things to you, some of which may or may not have been said already (I read all the posts, but don't remember too well).

So, first off, well done on breaking away from that cult and not going back there. That was an excellent choice.

Secondly, thank you for sharing your story here (and I commend your literary skills, they are as impressive as they are rare, which is quite so). That was also an excellent choice, not only to perhaps find solidarity in your circumstances, but also for you to order your thoughts, as you said at the start of your story.

Thirdly, I think it’s safe to say that you’ve learnt much about life in a few years that might take most people decades to discover. Don’t regret those years that might seem wasted to you. The lessons you learnt from them are a valuable resource to you, and one that you can never lose. What’s more, somewhere along the line, you will be able to use your experiences to help other people through similar situations. Your story already serves as a warning for people against the dangers of cults and the like, but it also speaks of incredible perseverence and motivation.

I am religious, but I don’t want to bring too much of my personal belief into this. What I do, however, wish to mention, is that one of the greatest recurring themes in the stories of people’s journey with God (the one related to the Bible, just to clarify that), is hitting rock bottom and the consequent struggle with God over why he let whatever happened to them happen. I do not know any genuine (as I perceive them, and barring the radicals) Christians who have not at some stage in their lives gone through that. I also don’t know any of them (or anybody, for that matter) who agree on all aspects of each other’s beliefs. If you do decide to seek God again, just be sure to seek God by God, not by people. Take from that paragraph what you will, it is only my opinion.

What I would like to tell you for now though, is to not stop fighting. Whatever your circumstances, don’t give up: You can’t keep a good man down! (Of: Onkruid vergaan nie, as jy jouself meer met ‘n kakiebos wil vereenselwig).

I want to thank you for sharing your history with us. Personally, I found it valuable.

(Just in case: I don't want to feed the religious debate lurking in this thread, so if anyone disagrees with me, please keep in mind that the above is only my opinion. I would be happy to discuss it in civil fashion, and preferably via PM. Just keep that in mind if you would like to comment on my post.)
 

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:cower: sounds hectic.

If you don't mind me asking, what isare your options then if you have debt that you're unable to repay?

You can apply for debt review and that is usually a disaster / waste of time / buy more time.

The sometimes safest approach is to never admit you can't pay the debt but want to enter into a payment plan with the creditor.

If a creditor gets judgment against you and sends the sheriff and you don't really have much to sell / attach you enter into a relatively safe space. If the sheriff cant find any more stuff to
sell the creditor can take you to section 65 proceeding where a magistrate would make you pay a monthly amount in reduction of the debt. There are people with millions in debt paying R 1000.00 a month which is hilarious when you work out interest on the debt.

Being sequestrated by a creditor can be avoided if you can prove that there is little advantage to creditor. If you have no real assets then what's the point of sequestration? creditors would end up paying money instead of receiving it.

If you owe, you will end up paying in one form or another. Time can be bought and arrangements made.

but remember:

NEVER EVER EVER EVER SIGN PERSONAL SURETYSHIP FOR SOMETHING OR SOMEONE.

LAWYER UP FAST WHEN SHIT HITS THE FAN FAST.

DON'T GET MARRIED IN COMMUNITY OF PROPERTY. EVER.

DON'T CONSOLIDATE YOUR DEBT. DON'T FALL FOR DEBT BUSTER HORSESHIT.

LEARN HOW TO CALCULATE COMPOUND INTEREST.

If you are speaking with reference to a company there is a whole other load of options to try.
 

megustav

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I 100% understand what you are saying. However I've been in enough debates with religious people to understand that sometimes you just have to let people do their own thing.

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo[/video]

I wanted to post this, but I felt it was too on the nose.
 

SCHUMI4EVER

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Placing yourself in sequestration can have huge ramifications on your future employment prospects, credit, education and in very odd circumstances even have you end up in jail if you do not comply. Sequestration should only be used as a final solution and after talking to a reputable attorney. DO NOT RUSH INTO IT.

Bah. I did both a half a year of individuals and half a year of companies but it seems the terminology from companies stuck more.

I'd like a little more clarification on this though. Obviously no one wants to hire someone who can't keep their affairs in order. But my impression was that it was temporary. In other words once you managed to pay off all debts to the satisfaction of the trustee and become solvent again the sequestration ends and thereafter it's effectively gone, as it if it never was, other than you not having the greatest credit rating. Or does it stay on file like effectively a criminal charge?

I ask because I've got a cousin in a similar boat. Not religion-based, just extremely skilled at self-destruction and living in denial and at least 100K in debt if not more, to various banks an other institutions. Started rolling off bank accounts against each other. This is not going to end well at all. (It's from her experience that I know how non-covering "collateral" is as they took her i20 and sold it for virtually nothing leaving her at least 80K in debt, where she could have done much better in a private sale).
 

WarHeaD

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Still don't understand why god is needed for this? Are you really that arrogant to think you cannot REALLY be a PROPER good person if you don't have some god figure to love and worship? Get off your high horse. I don't need hocus pocus 101 to tell me not to be a doos or be faithful to my wife.

I'm happy knowing life is not a stop gap for an all you can worship buffet. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be a doos.

So addressing someone who is fairly open minded and has seen both sides of the fence, and tried to give their experience and views on certain things in the above manner is okay?

To call me arrogant, and tell me to get down from my apparent high horse, when I am truly humble and merely stating MY experiences and views on something in a polite and friendly manner?

I don't think that I was being an evangelist? Did I not merely ask simple questions and post my experiences and thoughts on the matter? If you read my reply to [MENTION=296]Noah[/MENTION] further down, you'd understand more, but your blind hatred for "some god figure" is too big to see what I'm getting at, I guess.

That's not my problem, nor is it my place to judge... but your attitude towards others could be better... maybe if you actually understand what others try and say, instead of saddling up your own high horse, as you so eloquently said, and slapping on your atheist saddle and chaffs and riding off into the wild west, maybe place yourself in a neutral state of mind, have empathy for someone else and then address the issue, politely.
 
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KLEAN_upguy

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Keep your head up
[video=youtube;OedT8rSE_S0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OedT8rSE_S0[/video]
Just remember the wheel turns and happiness isnt found in a dollar.
 

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Bah. I did both a half a year of individuals and half a year of companies but it seems the terminology from companies stuck more.

I'd like a little more clarification on this though. Obviously no one wants to hire someone who can't keep their affairs in order. But my impression was that it was temporary. In other words once you managed to pay off all debts to the satisfaction of the trustee and become solvent again the sequestration ends and thereafter it's effectively gone, as it if it never was, other than you not having the greatest credit rating. Or does it stay on file like effectively a criminal charge?

I ask because I've got a cousin in a similar boat. Not religion-based, just extremely skilled at self-destruction and living in denial and at least 100K in debt if not more, to various banks an other institutions. Started rolling off bank accounts against each other. This is not going to end well at all. (It's from her experience that I know how non-covering "collateral" is as they took her i20 and sold it for virtually nothing leaving her at least 80K in debt, where she could have done much better in a private sale).

Some positions, like being an attorney, compliance officer, financial advisor etc, you cannot have been sequestrated.

Its not a criminal history in any way but it sticks with you for life (Civil Judgment). Even when you are rehabilitated you can't take certain positions. Getting credit is next to impossible.

It may stop the pain one way but it closes many doors. Usually a creditor can be convinced for you to work the debt off for years to avoid it. Sometimes that's the best plan.
 

MSI1104

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You can apply for debt review and that is usually a disaster / waste of time / buy more time.

The sometimes safest approach is to never admit you can't pay the debt but want to enter into a payment plan with the creditor.

If a creditor gets judgment against you and sends the sheriff and you don't really have much to sell / attach you enter into a relatively safe space. If the sheriff cant find any more stuff to
sell the creditor can take you to section 65 proceeding where a magistrate would make you pay a monthly amount in reduction of the debt. There are people with millions in debt paying R 1000.00 a month which is hilarious when you work out interest on the debt.

Being sequestrated by a creditor can be avoided if you can prove that there is little advantage to creditor. If you have no real assets then what's the point of sequestration? creditors would end up paying money instead of receiving it.

If you owe, you will end up paying in one form or another. Time can be bought and arrangements made.

but remember:

NEVER EVER EVER EVER SIGN PERSONAL SURETYSHIP FOR SOMETHING OR SOMEONE.

LAWYER UP FAST WHEN SHIT HITS THE FAN FAST.

DON'T GET MARRIED IN COMMUNITY OF PROPERTY. EVER.

DON'T CONSOLIDATE YOUR DEBT. DON'T FALL FOR DEBT BUSTER HORSESHIT.

LEARN HOW TO CALCULATE COMPOUND INTEREST.

If you are speaking with reference to a company there is a whole other load of options to try.

Google Nulla Bona Return and acts of insolvency South Africa. Its grounds for sequestration... But if you have no fixed assets they wont sequestrate.
 

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You can apply for debt review and that is usually a disaster / waste of time / buy more time.

The sometimes safest approach is to never admit you can't pay the debt but want to enter into a payment plan with the creditor.

This thread has derailed so badly and this is the worst advice I have ever read. My wife is a Debt Counselor, and the amount of people she has been able to help who truly need it is amazing. People that have been retrenched, medical bills adding up and such. So no, Debt Review is not a waste of time or money.
 

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Google Nulla Bona Return and acts of insolvency South Africa. Its grounds for sequestration... But if you have no fixed assets they wont sequestrate.

I'm attempting a sequestrating tomorrow (Case number 0030302/2017 South Gauteng High Court) and can assure you that an act of insolvency, nulla bona in particular, is no guarantee of sequestration. Courts have swayed heavily on the concept of benefit to creditors in the recent months and very technical defenses succeeded.

Even when you have a clear act of insolvency and benefit to creditors you could be facing an uphill battle.

That's why smart folks put everything in a trust and claim poverty when the time comes.
 

Jer1cho

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So addressing someone who is fairly open minded and has seen both sides of the fence, and tried to give their experience and views on certain things in the above manner is okay?

Sorry man, but I don't buy into you saying both sides of the fence. When you jump over the fence it's a one way ticket. Nobody goes back to believing Santa Clause is real after they find out he isn't. If you claim to have been an atheist and are now religious, then I don't think you ever truly left belief in the first place. That's my opinion on it. My manner is justified in my view because someone wrote an entire post about how religion almost completely ruined their lives, and then boom, the 10 commandments. Seriously?

To call me arrogant, when I am truly humble and merely stating MY experiences and views?

Didn't call you arrogant. I asked if you were really that arrogant, as your post suggests, to think that without religion you cannot 'really' be a good person. You make a claim like that, you need to back it up.

Where was I any sort of evangelist in my reply? Did I not merely ask simple questions? If you read my reply to @Noah too, you'd understand more, but your hatred for "some god figure" is too big to see the truth it seems.

The Truth, and your truth, are two very different things. Also, don't get me started on the 'atheists actually just hate god' thing. It's really just a red herring, and it has nothing to do with anything 'truth' related.

but your attitude towards others could be better... maybe if you actually understand what others try and say, instead of saddling up your own high horse and slapping on your atheist saddle and chaffs and riding off into the wild west, maybe place yourself in a neutral state of mind, have empathy for someone else and then address the issue.

I'm definitely gonna need the horse and saddle to catch up to you. Religion is a virus, and it etches itself into your brain until it eventually takes over. Don't let me halt the momentum at all. Carry on. I'm enjoying the sunset from my atheist saddle now. Cheers.
 
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WarHeaD

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I'm just going to leave this here, if any of the religious folk can disprove this logic, I would be very pleased.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Who commits these evil deeds?

I would like to know more about this personally. I am fascinated by beliefs and religions. How did you come by this and get involved? I will read my self what it entails exactly.

I'll chat to you another time, I'll whatsapp you later.
 

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Religion is a virus, and it etches itself into your brain until it eventually takes over. Don't let me halt the momentum at all. Carry on. I'm enjoying the sunset from my atheist saddle now. Cheers.

See. This is where you overdo it again. I don't care if you are religious or not. Stop being a cunt and respect other people. Guess what.. The Truth, and your truth, are two very different things as well.

When my family prays before eating, I close my eyes in respect although I do not agree with it. When we have Christmas gatherings, I enjoy it with them, regardless of the narrative and how religiousy it gets - Out of respect. Learn some of it.

Argue = Yes. Insult = No. Learn the difference
 
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wimstrydom

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Post edit: A lot of the points I make here has been made so far, but I started writing this before those were posted so apologies to those who have already mentioned some of this.

Okay. First of all WarHeaD (I would tag but don't know how) thank you so much for putting the time and effort into crafting this reply. It is clearly apparent from your post that you've been having a rather moving experience this last while and that it has affected your worldview.

Now a couple of things I'd like to state before I launch into the body of my reply. Your ideas are not you. That is a fact that seems simple enough but so many people do not realise and has caused immeasurable damage over history. Please keep this in mind, that while I might criticise your post and the ideas embodied in it, I by no means mean to offend you as a person. You, as a human being, are far too complex to be contained within a couple of words contained in a forum post. Please try to view your own views that you have expressed here objectively.

Okay let's go piece by piece.

This is so true, and for the first time, in the eye of the public on Carbonite, I don't care what anyone thinks, but my wife and I both were reborn recently and things are really changing for the better, and I'd like to share my experiences and thoughts on here too:

[MENTION=34820]wimstrydom[/MENTION] - The problem I see with MANY believers these days (especially since I was so deep into the "other side" of things), is that people tend to look at their own intelligence and plan their way forward through all their own "infinite" wisdom, which in my humble opinion and personal is incorrect (In accordance to my experiences, again).

If I'm understanding you correctly here, you're saying that people shouldn't be relying on their own intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge but rather something beyond them, such as God. I haven't really met anyone who have gotten anywhere by just relying on God, but we'll get back to this later.

My wife and I found God through the Rastafari culture/movement (more on this at another stage), if you look into their core belief systems, it's essentially normal Bible (They usually read the KJV Bible) and Christianity, but MUCH MUCH more intense (Denounce Babylon/Do onto others/Turn the other cheek/etc), and with a few other things that we can't fully understand as we were never in the time and space they were (w.r.t. H.I.M. Haile Selassie begin considered as the King of Kings, due to him endorsing the ghetto youths to take up peace, love and faith, instead of trusting in the Babylonian systems, guns, violence and earthly possessions, etc).

You mention denouncing "Babylon" here. "Babylon" can mean very different things. Do you denounce the ancient civilisation that existed in Mesopotamia thousands of years ago? I assume not since it would be rather pointless to denounce something that has ceased to exist millennia ago. I assume "Babylon" means something along the lines of the capitalist world, material possessions, or things relating to consumerism. Babylon means to some people the Catholic church, to others it is New York City, in SCJ it is all other churches other than SCJ.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Bible is really open to SO much interpretation that you can't really point to any one interpretation and say "This is the RIGHT one."

They also do exactly what you and your family did (I and I wanna live in Dread), and this is something I can honestly only commend you on as it is truly awe-inspiring that you and your family had the courage to do so... my wife and I are planning on trying for our first child/children, but within my heart of hearts, I would like to denounce all earthly possessions and start afresh, but I'm scared to fully let go just yet, but I am truly hopeful that somewhere on our journey, this opportunity arises and we can live in true peace and love, together, be that in this life or the next...

Also, in my findings/understandings of late is that there is a MAJOR difference between man's wisdom and God's wisdom... man's truth and God's truth... man's plans and God's plans, make yourself the clay and God the potter and things will work out fine. (Isaiah 64:8).

I'm not sure what you mean with "I and I wanna live in Dread" but living in dread is exactly what we did for the last couple of years. Here's dictionary.com's definition of dread: "anticipate with great apprehension or fear." You commend us for making the most stupid and ignorant decision in our lives. This literally ruined our lives by selling everything. You might as well commend someone for committing suicide because they get to meet God sooner. (I have met a Rastafarian once who insisted that he wanted to commit suicide to meet God.)

Secondly you now again mention that God's wisdom trumps Man's wisdom. You're probably thinking of Isaiah 55:8-9
8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

I love this verse. It's like the ultimate verse to use. Similar to the common sayings "God works in mysterious ways" and "We cannot fathom the mind of God".
The idea that we just cannot understand the workings of God is so silly.
If he's almighty then why doesn't he stop children being killed? His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, we just cannot comprehend the motivation he has.​
Any desired state that God could wish to accomplish by all these terrible things that happen in the world he could just create in an instant. He could just instantaneously create a world where everyone believes in him and does no evil.

You also said that we should let God mold us. Now I prayed to God continuously for a long time before joining SCJ. I cried out to God to please show me the truth and let me see how I can serve him. I begged him to let me understand his will for me. We let all of our decisions as a family be made by "listening to God" and trying to let him "mold" us. That landed us in the trouble to begin with. Now commonly at this point people would say something along the lines of "But you didn't do it in the right way. You didn't say your prayers like this or you didn't spend time alone on the beach standing on your head with a ball balanced on your pinky toe. The thing is everyone thinks they know the right way to pray or let God mold them. There are more than 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. Just think about how big that number really is. What makes you think YOU know better than all of them?

Okay, moving on.

So in this time, where you might have denounced God or felt disconnected, due to the SJC and their "manly/earthly" ways of doing things, and possibly getting side tracked off of the Road to Zion (the daily road we have to walk to reach Heaven) by the Beast (in forms of money hunger, false prophets, verbal abuse, emotional manipulation, etc), never forget the feelings and experiences you had that you know in your Heart of hearts (The Holy Spirit speaks this truth to us) was good and for the right cause and remember that overwhelming feeling of happiness when you truly experience God's touch... place your faith back in Him and forget what other Human beings might do and say as "religious icons", and rather focus on doing what the Bible tells us and what the Holy spirit within yourself is telling you to do, which I know is REALLY, REALLY, REAAAAALLY hard most times, because being a sinner is 10 fold easier than listening to your inner voice and doing what is right.

The amazing thing that I picked up on (reading your posts), is that my views on the Bible, and religion/connection with God, is exactly as wonderful as your first encounters with God in this thread... inexplicable things taking place which is truly amazing to behold and feel. I too feel there are MANY hidden secrets in The Book of Life (and through Bible study and meditation we can decipher these), and if we truly start listening to that little peace of God that lives within all of us (The Holy Spirit), then things start changing VERY rapidly (and in our case, for the better).

Again, we have to look at these things from different perspectives. You say SCJ has a "manly/earthly" way of doing. They would argue that they have the only "heavenly" way of doing in the world. The call themselves Mt Zion, and say that the "Mountain" is where God is and since God is with SCJ now, SCJ is the mountain. The beast is another thing that's totally open to interpretation. Everyone has their own definition for what the beast REALLY is. It's like the most twisted scooby doo episode ever.

Now you yourself said you see a lot of similarities between between the feelings and experiences that you are having now that you've been "saved" and what my family had experienced. We too thought we had finally found a way to uncover the "Hidden secrets" in the bible (It's literally mentioned in Luke 8:10). Everything was so amazing, at the time that all these things that I mentioned in the original post happened we all felt so great and that we had finally found the truth. It was like the honeymoon period. So I'd like to challenge you, take a step back and see what the real difference is between this what you've found and SCJ? Take a look at what critics have to say about it, if it really is the absolute truth then no criticism should be able to stand up against it.

(Also previously mentioned is correlation is not causation. Just because two things happened together doesn't mean "Thing A" caused "Thing B" to happen. Doesn't necessarily apply to you as I don't know which "Things" started changing rapidly)

The timeline for my "rebirth" was on my 32nd Birthday which was just over a month ago (So I am not calling myself an expert, and I am humbly and honestly only speaking about my experiences and views on these matters, as I am still a student of God and will forever be until I meet the Big Boss one day).

I was brought up in a home with STRICT religious views, but never felt or understood God until recently and now after listening to God for myself, I have found MAJOR... nay... HUGE issues within my family and their core beliefs/views on certain things, as I feel they can't call themselves devoted Christians when their hearts are full of hate/greed/lust/whatever else.

Anyhow, long story short... I feel, again, from my personal experience, that we should look to God and His TRUE infinite wisdom, and we should look at God's truth as guidelines in this life, and not look at other humans... YES... by all means, congregate and discuss the Bible, figure out its secrets and use them to become a better person and establish a stronger spiritual connection, but always remember... a man will and is always only that... a MAN... and don't blindly follow men, even if they are "holy" - listen to what your inner voice tells you and if you feel this is God's truth, then act upon your feelings (but also in accordance to what the Bible tells us).

We are fallible creations... we are susceptible to the evils of the world and the Devil's things (flashy cars, money, big houses, alcohol abuse, lust, etc), but at the end of the day, in your last dying moments, when you blow out your final breath (be that peacefully on your death bed, or being crushed by a boulder at random), I firmly believe in those last few seconds, you will have to face yourself (face the Holy spirit/God) and be truthful with yourself, then there won't be any excuses or lies, because you alone will know in these moments that God's truth trumps all, then you will have to ask yourself: "why was I a rude, lazy, ungrateful prick towards my wife? Why did I not see that my constant alcohol abuse was befouling our lives to a point where it was basically tearing us apart? Why did I lie and steal? Why did I murder someone? Why did I physically cause pain/harm to others? Etc, etc, etc, etc"

We all have our own crosses to carry to the finish line, but if you GENUINELY give it 150% every single day of your life to atone for your past transgressions/trespassings, I truly believe things will be better and you will start noticing positive changes and experience the Divine.

Then on the flip-side for anyone who perhaps felt like reading this who isn't religious... look outside and see what the world is turning into, due to people not following the 10 commandments... if it's fictitious, why are things so bad all of a sudden? Why is the world being controlled by evil? So what if you don't believe in God... what harm can it do, to try and live in a good manner? Yes, you might not kill anyone, but are you truly faithful to your wife? Do you watch porn instead of sharing true love and passion with your wife? Do you lie daily? Do you steal (be that R1 or R1mil)? There are a billion good things that can come from living your life based on any of the religions of TRUE peace and love, so why not challenge yourself and give it a try? Yes, we go through tough times... but in the end it's part of live, no one is free from hurt and sadness in this life, but look around at others and instead of being selfish, help others too... why must you own a R5mil house, drive 10 cars, own a R200k computer, etc, when others are out there with nothing.

These small changes on a daily basis add up to inner peace and you will be blessed for your efforts.

Okay I think I made most of my points. Two last things.

1. Morality is subjective. What's objectively wrong with owning or wanting a nice house, nice car, beautiful wife/husband, watching porn? Going even further than that, there's a simple explanation for why people drink excessively, abuse each other, murder, steal. The simple explanation is: They want to. Everyone does what they want. Their motivations may differ, some people take a long term approach and aren't short sighted, whereas others do what feels nice in the moment. Don't blame it on the devil. Even things like stealing and killing aren't objectively wrong. It's just very detrimental to society.

2. Ten commandments. They are not the first laws to prohibit murder, theft or adultery. The first law we have records of is the Code of Hammurabi which does prohibit the aforementioned. It also predates the supposed time God gave Moses the Ten commandments (which we don't have any record of, we just have later copies made by men.)

Ten commandments are:
1. You shall have no other God before me.
2. You shall not make any graven images.
3.You shall not use the Lord's Name in vain.
4. Remember to keep Sabbath day holy.
5. Honour your father and mother.
6. You shall not commit murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
10. You shall not covet​

Just look at them. Come on. You yourself said in the post
I have found MAJOR... nay... HUGE issues within my family and their core beliefs/views on certain things, as I feel they can't call themselves devoted Christians when their hearts are full of hate/greed/lust/whatever else.
Aren't you breaking the 5th right there? These commandments aren't really logical or reasonable. Only a couple of them really make sense and they weren't original.
 

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This thread has derailed so badly and this is the worst advice I have ever read. My wife is a Debt Counselor, and the amount of people she has been able to help who truly need it is amazing. People that have been retrenched, medical bills adding up and such. So no, Debt Review is not a waste of time or money.

I'm not doubting she helps people, but on average debt reviews fail. They need a decent amount of creditor approval and involvement. If you owe the bank millions and want to try it then goodluck. People like me end up with the file and the debt review gets dismantled over time as the payments would not even service the interest.

If you cant pay your mortgage for three months and your dstv get cuts off then yeah maybe debt review may help. But some holes you don't climb out of in months or at all.

At the end of the day your wife charges those very people she helps and can only do so much. Keep that in mind.
 

Jer1cho

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See. This is where you overdo it again. I don't care if you are religious or not. Stop being a cunt and respect other people. Guess what.. The Truth, and your truth, are two very different things as well.

Yeah yeah I'm sorry. Sometimes personal happenings bring out the passion in a subject. Sorry for being a doos. Anyway, I'm done now.
 

WarHeaD

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Sorry man, but I don't buy into you saying both sides of the fence. When you jump over the fence it's a one way ticket. Nobody goes back to believing Santa Clause is real after they find out he isn't. If you claim to have been an atheist and are now religious, then I don't think you ever truly left belief in the first place. That's my opinion on it. My manner is justified in my view because someone wrote an entire post about how religion almost completely ruined their lives, and then boom, the 10 commandments. Seriously?



Didn't call you arrogant. I asked if you were really that arrogant, as your post suggests, to think that without religion you cannot 'really' be a good person. You make a claim like that, you need to back it up.



The Truth, and your truth, are two very different things. Also, don't get me started on the 'atheists actually just hate god' thing. It's really just a red herring, and it has nothing to do with anything 'truth' related.



I'm definitely gonna need the horse and saddle to catch up to you. Religion is a virus, and it etches itself into your brain until it eventually takes over. Don't let me halt the momentum at all. Carry on. I'm enjoying the sunset from my atheist saddle now. Cheers.

Let's leave this here for people to see how a "good atheist" addresses random people they don't know from a bar of soap... just because said person is religious and has their own view/experience/thoughts on a subject... after the fact that you removed all this and said: "Nah, let's leave this, I'm out..." or whatever you posted.

If you want to come out swinging, just be careful... you might just get a fright when you realize who you're throwing punches at in the dark. (And no, not physically... it's metaphorical).

But yeah, like I said... my views on the subject, in accordance to my views and experiences... If you can't understand it, or don't want to or whatever, it's your problem more than it is mine anyway.

Careful who you nail pon cross.

Enjoy the sunset. :)
 
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Flex

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I'm not doubting she helps people, but on average debt reviews fail. They need a decent amount of creditor approval and involvement. If you owe the bank millions and want to try it then goodluck. People like me end up with the file and the debt review gets dismantled over time as the payments would not even service the interest.

If you cant pay your mortgage for three months and your dstv get cuts off then yeah maybe debt review may help. But some holes you don't climb out of in months or at all.

At the end of the day your wife charges those very people she helps and can only do so much. Keep that in mind.

Debt Review is there to assist people that need it. Not for people who spend their money recklessly and think it is an easy way out. And that is pretty obvious. Keep that in mind. This thread is not to discuss peoples debt. So please go create your own thread and give the advice there. Which I would not recommend anyone follow
 
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