What is "Reasonable" Overtime?

[iamgigglz]

I quote from my contract:

...your normal working hours are from 08h30 to 16h30 Monday to Friday - 8 hours per day...

...it is recorded as a specific condition of your employment contract that you will, be required to perform reasonable hours of work in excess of your standard working hours, as directed by management, should the demands of the company necessitate such overtime. Failure to adhere to this condition will be deemed to be a material breach of contract.

Below is a chart of the overtime I've worked, represented as a percentage of the normal working hours (ie 50% = 60 hours worked in a 5 day working week)

I've worked 1102 hours this year. Normal working hours = 632. That's +52%. No extra pay received.

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act says no more than 10 hours’ overtime a week or 3 hours a day, but does not apply to "workers who earn in excess of an amount stated in terms of section 6 (3) of the Act". I can't find that section or how much that amount is. Assuming I earn more than that amount, does that just mean my employer is allowed to make me work as many overtime hours as they like?

I realise I should have asked these questions before signing the contract but that's water under the bridge.

 

[Toxxyc]

That's definitely not "reasonable", IMO, and will hold up as such in any court.

 

[RexTrueform]

Your employer has basically got a free employee out of this deal.
I have the same clause in my contract but have essentially never worked overtime.
Well there are a few times I work after hours from home but that's negligible.

 

[thePridge]

Eish dude...I've been down that road. It's not fun. I see your "Occupation" is also "Dev".

You should not be working overtime unless you are goofing off all day and not getting your work done...
OR you have a business/management problem.

Lemme 'splain:

I'm a "developer" by trade, and for some reason it seems that very often the business side of the equation agrees to clients' demands and then throw the devs under the bus.
I worked at a place where the BA would get back from a client at 4:30pm and send the dev a mail with a short paragraph and say "I told the client they can have this by 8am tomorrow".
It was the norm, so the dev would work through the night to make it happen.
Result, 10 - 12 hour days are "normal" and 15 - 18 hour days happen every now and then.

It's really tough... because theoretically there should be "sizing meetings" used to determine how much work you have.
That work should be broken into X hours and tasks etc and then they should go "have at it!" and you start working.
But what I have seen is that there is an ever growing list of outstanding issues and new requests and bugs and and and.
Then if your communication channel is messed up where work doesn't all go through the correct scheduling resource before ending up at you
you end up getting mails from clients directly and from BAs and from everyone and have to keep everyone happy.

The problem with this scenario is that you start working less "accurately" i.e. you write more buggy code than normal.
You simply cannot work so many overtime hours and still do a decent job.
You deliver lower quality work which then creates new bugs which get added onto this ever growing list.

I wish I could offer you advice. I tried to get this sorted out at a couple of places I worked at, but because I was merely a
"grunt" in the trenches it never really came right. I eventually ended up burning out mentally. I had to leave to save my sanity.

The tricky part is that there is already a set precedent for overtime being almost the norm (from your post it would seem so)
so to change that as someone who is part of the precedent is really really tough. I've seen people join companies where overtime
was the norm and they were like "not happening with me" and they managed to last a while that way. But in the end, if you haven't
got enough sway with the right people you can't change the culture of the company.

 

[WiZard]

Latest I could find:
"I, Mildred Nelisiwe Oliphant, Minister of Labour, in terms of Section 6(3) of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, No. 75 of 1997, (the Act), determine that all employees earning in excess of R205 433.30 (two hundred and five thousand, four hundred and thirty three rand, thirty cents) per annum be excluded from sections 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17(2), 18(3) of the Act with effect from 1 July 2014."

 

[MSI1104]

[MENTION=29209]iamgigglz[/MENTION]
http://www.labourguide.co.za/conditions-of-employment/643-the-earnings-threshold

I suggest you look at Section 48 of the BCEA... They must pay you for your overtime and it must be negotiated not dictated.

 

[kenny'sgh05t]

your employer has you where they want you.. as your contract specifies that you must be available for overtime if needed without extra pay, and you signed it you agree to that.


Allot of Company's do that to slave you in and save them self's Money, I work shifts 24/7 so we get night shift allowance and overtime for Sundays and Public holidays.. and its counts up to allot every month

 

[Cedz700]

I quote from my contract:




Below is a chart of the overtime I've worked, represented as a percentage of the normal working hours (ie 50% = 60 hours worked in a 5 day working week)

I've worked 1102 hours this year. Normal working hours = 632. That's +52%. No extra pay received.

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act says no more than 10 hours’ overtime a week or 3 hours a day, but does not apply to "workers who earn in excess of an amount stated in terms of section 6 (3) of the Act". I can't find that section or how much that amount is. Assuming I earn more than that amount, does that just mean my employer is allowed to make me work as many overtime hours as they like?

I realise I should have asked these questions before signing the contract but that's water under the bridge.

Hey man, firstly I am sorry that you are in this situation. I know what it feels like to work yourself to the bone and not even get a handshake at the end of the day.

In terms of your first statement, I also have a similar clause in my contract that states the company may require me to work overtime from time to time as necessary, at no additional cost to company. Or something of the like, however I have worked extra/longer hours many times by staying late or leaving early. However, I think you are going to have difficulties in suddenly convincing them that you cannot do this anymore, however it has to be done. At least let them know that you are struggling to keep up.

Secondly, in terms of the minimum amount before you can no longer ask for overtime pay, it is R205, 433.30 p.a OR R17, 119.44 per month (Before deductions). In most cases we fall above the threshold, which means that you are not going to get overtime. However, you can still only work an X-amount of time overtime, as it can have a negative effect on your health (both mentally and physically).

If you want to read more on what I am stating the amount on, you can do so here or here.

Whatever the outcome is, I hope you get an answer, but maybe it would not be a bad idea just to talk to your manager and tell them you need assistance or a lesser workload.
If your employer is a hardass he/she will tell you that it is just the way things are, if they are humane they will hear you out and try and make alternatives. But trust me, at least leave a paper trail if things go South, you can point back and say that on the following dates I lodged complaints, etc... or go see a doctor and make them write a letter stating the health implications that you are going to suffer as a result... just some suggestions. Keep strong!

 

[WiZard]

"...it is recorded as a specific condition of your employment contract that you will, be required to perform reasonable hours of work in excess of your standard working hours, as directed by management, should the demands of the company necessitate such overtime. Failure to adhere to this condition will be deemed to be a material breach of contract."

I've worked 1102 hours this year. Normal working hours = 632. That's +52%. No extra pay received.

Not paying someone for work is called "Slavery" and is illegal in South Africa, if the contract does not stipulate the overtime amount, you still have to negotiate it (and from what I understand, the negotiated extra amount will apply to all overtime worked since the contract commenced?)

"Prohibition of forced labour
48.(1) Subject to the Constitution, all forced labour is prohibited.
(2) No person may for his or her own benefit or for the benefit of someone else, cause,
demand or impose forced labour in contravention of subsection (1).
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) commits an offence."

Does this mean he can lay Criminal charges against the company?

PS: As far as I know, overtime pay may not be LESS than normal pay?

PPS: Any contract requiring unpaid overtime (i.e. the company can force you to work overtime) is invalid/illegal?

 

[iamgigglz]

Ok so I'm earning more than the threshold amount, and judging by what I've read in the act links etc provided it simply means that my employer is not obliged to pay me overtime.
As for the amount of overtime worked, earning above the threshold does not exclude me from the overtime limits.

I've just received a meeting request for my twice a year performance appraisal, which is a held with my boss and HR. It's an opportunity to discuss salaray adjustments and, potentially, a bonus. It's on Wednesday. Let's see...

 

[thePridge]

Ok so I'm earning more than the threshold amount, and judging by what I've read in the act links etc provided it simply means that my employer is not obliged to pay me overtime.
As for the amount of overtime worked, earning above the threshold does not exclude me from the overtime limits.

I've just received a meeting request for my twice a year performance appraisal, which is a held with my boss and HR. It's an opportunity to discuss salaray adjustments and, potentially, a bonus. It's on Wednesday. Let's see...

Good luck dude! Hope things work out.

 

[ambroseg1]

From personal experience in working for two such companies in the past (PAREXEL and SAB), this will not end well. Find other employment.

 

[reVolt]

Had a similar situation when i started working. In general, employers want to avoid paying for overtime or give paid leave for the hours worked overtime.

In my case and as i understand it, if you earn less than R205 433.30 per annum you should be paid in one of the two options mentioned above. If not, then they are not liable to compensate you.

I took this up with our HR department and they gave me a very vague answer (trying to avoid paying me over time), so i explained and discussed it with my manager and we worked out a deal were i can use my OT as paid leave.

 

[Toxxyc]

No company can force you to work overtime either, just FYI. I make sure in my contracts now that I get something for overtime worked. I will never work again for free, period.

 

[Themistocles]

Dam... I miss the days of overtime (and getting paid for it). Used to work over weekends as well, sure it was a pain at times but at the end of the month, the extra cash made it worth it.

 

[WiZard]

your employer has you where they want you.. as your contract specifies that you must be available for overtime if needed without extra pay, and you signed it you agree to that.

You cannot contractually agree to anything that is against a LAW, that would make the contract invalid...

OP: Does the contract actually specify ZERO pay for overtime?

I took this up with our HR department and they gave me a very vague answer (trying to avoid paying me over time), so i explained and discussed it with my manager and we worked out a deal were i can use my OT as paid leave.

That seems a reasonable compromise.

 

[ambroseg1]

You cannot contractually agree to anything that is against a LAW, that would make the contract invalid...

Do yourself a favour. Call CCMA and explain that you signed a contract that states you will work overtime for no compensation. I called 4 CCMA offices and was told "if you signed the contract then it is your problem". I'm not saying the CCMA is correct, or perhaps I spoke to the office imbeciles, but that I think is their stance on the matter.

 

[SilvRav]

[MENTION=179]Sneaky Snail[/MENTION] please assist here bud.

[MENTION=29209]iamgigglz[/MENTION] before taking any ccma, or attorneys or anyone involved, just chat to them. Take the graph and have an open conversation with your boss. Sometimes they not aware of whats happening and he might adjust your contract accordingly. if he is, he is taking advantage and there is lots of routes you can follow.

 

[iamgigglz]

OP: Does the contract actually specify ZERO pay for overtime?

Doesn't say that. Doesn't say they'll pay me either. Just what I quoted in the OP

 

[iamgigglz]

[MENTION=179]Sneaky Snail[/MENTION] please assist here bud.

[MENTION=29209]iamgigglz[/MENTION] before taking any ccma, or attorneys or anyone involved, just chat to them. Take the graph and have an open conversation with your boss. Sometimes they not aware of whats happening and he might adjust your contract accordingly. if he is, he is taking advantage and there is lots of routes you can follow.

The boss is fully aware, as is her boss and her boss's boss. Granted top boss keeps holding meetings saying "these hours need to stop", so he realises that something isn't right, but he's been saying that all year and nothing changes.
I agree with not just diving into the legal approach. Wednesday's meeting will be interesting; I'm just gearing myself up with knowledge around the rights/laws beforehand.

 

[Toxxyc]

[MENTION=179]Sneaky Snail[/MENTION] please assist here bud.

[MENTION=29209]iamgigglz[/MENTION] before taking any ccma, or attorneys or anyone involved, just chat to them. Take the graph and have an open conversation with your boss. Sometimes they not aware of whats happening and he might adjust your contract accordingly. if he is, he is taking advantage and there is lots of routes you can follow.

This. Unfortunately with the SA job market being as it is, going to the CCMA should really be a highly thought-over, last resort. Few companies will employ people once they hear they've been to CCMA because of unhappy feelings.

 

[ambroseg1]

Doesn't say that. Doesn't say they'll pay me either. Just what I quoted in the OP

What is the culture in the company you work for regarding these type of issues? Are other people also working like slaves? Has it become an expectation from management? Are you the only one unhappy with this??

 

[ambroseg1]

The boss is fully aware, as is her boss and her boss's boss. Granted top boss keeps holding meetings saying "these hours need to stop", so he realises that something isn't right, but he's been saying that all year and nothing changes.
I agree with not just diving into the legal approach. Wednesday's meeting will be interesting; I'm just gearing myself up with knowledge around the rights/laws beforehand.

Whatever you do, do not quote laws in that meeting. It will not be looked on kindly. Be as diplomatic as possible.

 

[Toxxyc]

Whatever you do, do not quote laws in that meeting. It will not be looked on kindly. Be as diplomatic as possible.

This. Quoting laws sees you as "attacking". Take this from someone who's done it - it's not a good idea unless you want to leave the company.

 

[iamgigglz]

What is the culture in the company you work for regarding these type of issues? Are other people also working like slaves? Has it become an expectation from management? Are you the only one unhappy with this??

The culture in the team seems to be complain-complain-complain...but work anyway. Maybe like me they think that it'll eventually improve on its own. As you can see from the graph it did start to improve for a few weeks, but it's back again.
I've spoken to a few of the old hands here and they say it was never like this int he past. The madness started at the beginning of this year.

Whatever you do, do not quote laws in that meeting. It will not be looked on kindly. Be as diplomatic as possible.

This. Quoting laws sees you as "attacking". Take this from someone who's done it - it's not a good idea unless you want to leave the company.

Yeah, I don't want to go in there to pick a fight. Arriving with boxing gloves on wouldn't send the right message. Diplomacy is the way forward for now.

 

[MSI1104]

No they are obliged to pay you overtime, but that is to be negotiated. not mandated by law.

 

[Toady001]

Employees who earn in excess of the present threshold amount are not subject to the provisions of section 10 (overtime) of The Basic Conditions of Employment Act. This means that such employees cannot demand to be paid for overtime worked, nor can they demand to be granted paid time off. However contrary to popular belief, the employer also cannot force such employees to work overtime and cannot demand that they work overtime without compensation, unless the employee agreed to this.

The current threshold is R205 433.30 per year.

The signed contract I would believe is a written agreement. Best approach would be to talk to management and state your case and the fact that you feel you are being taken advantage of. If they don't listen or don't care about it, best to look at moving on.

 

[RexTrueform]

I think as many have said, it's best you be straight with your current employer and explain your concerns, that really is a hell of a lot of overtime to work without compensation of some form.

 

[ambroseg1]

I think as many have said, it's best you be straight with your current employer and explain your concerns, that really is a hell of a lot of overtime to work without compensation of some form.

I would like to add to your statement slightly. Basically that the amount of overtime worked without compensation is a concern, AND that ANY overtime worked without compensation is a concern.

None of these companies that force their employees to work overtime without compensation, do work for clients for free.

 

[RexTrueform]

I would like to add to your statement slightly. Basically that the amount of overtime worked without compensation is a concern, AND that ANY overtime worked without compensation is a concern.

None of these companies that force their employees to work overtime without compensation, do work for clients for free.

I have an agreement with my boss that should I need to put in a few hours at home then I will do it, he has provided a design laptop that I take home to work on if needed.
I can count the overtime hours I've worked on my one hand so it's not an issue as I complete my work during the day and very rarely work overtime from home if there's and urgent design that has to be completed.
Luckily my boss is very much of the opinion that overtime is for urgent work and not for inefficient employees, not saying you are inefficient though op.