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Dispute between XJDHDR \ ambroseg1

ambroseg1

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Deal Thread URL: http://carbonite.co.za/showthread.php?t=157492
Seller: [MENTION=23389]XJDHDR[/MENTION]
Buyer: [MENTION=2029]ambroseg1[/MENTION]
Description of Bad Deal:

"Bought" PSU. Paid for PSU on Monday. PSU was supposed to ship upon funds reflecting. Funds were supposed to reflect today. Contact seller only to be told the bank account provided has closed on his request (yes, you read correct. He gave me an account number he had asked to be closed according to him). Contact my bank to be told that if the account were closed the funds would have returned to my account within 24 hours of payment which was yesterday and did not happen.

Gave him an ultimatum to either ship PSU today or pay me back today. Don't expect either. Moving on.

Clearly a scammer.

May I post the scammer's personal details that I have? Name (which I think is fake anyway) and bank account details? Lesson learnt. Thought he could be trusted as he just did a deal with good itrader with a moderator.

Could I request that he be banned as soon as possible so as to not have time to swindle others?
 
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XJDHDR

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

First, this is so unfair. In our PM conversation, you told me that you would wait until tomorrow for my reply as to what is going on with our deal. Why are you now trying to ruin my reputation without even waiting for that?

Second, you are leaving out a very crucial detail in our conversation regarding my bank account: I asked FNB to close the account a month ago. Can you please explain to me why it is reasonable to assume that FNB would wait a whole month to close that account after they told me that it would be done ASAP? How was I supposed to know that they would twiddle their thumbs and only do the cancellation at their leisure? Surely it is more reasonable to assume that they simply weren't going to do it at all.

Third, the payment would not have been returned to you yesterday because my account was still open at the time. If you look at the bank statement I sent you, it clearly says that the account was closed on the 9th of May. Since that statement only arrived earlier today, it's logical to assume that the cancellation was processed in the afternoon which means 24 hours later is still a few hours from now. And that is assuming Standard Bank noticed the cancellation as soon as it happened; if they only noticed it today then 24 hours later would mean tomorrow morning. So actually, it is to be expected that the payment hasn't been returned to you yet.

Finally, here is my bank statement with personal information blanked out:
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=...0B63C!7325&parId=ECA203659010B63C!948&o=OneUp
As you can clearly see, I have not received a payment from you and no amount of name-calling or reputation-tarnishing is going to change this fact. The only reason you don't have your money yet is because the banks screwed up the transfer.

Now, despite your rude behaviour and jumping to conclusions, I am still willing to complete this transaction. But I want proof that you have made a payment. I will PM you my email address to send it to me. Alternatively, you may upload them somewhere and post a link in this thread to prove that your claims have merit. I am not willing to send you that PSU until I can verify those documents.

Now if you will excuse me, it is late at night here and I have classes at my college tomorrow. Just in case you don't know what that is about, here is a quote from the OP of my thread:
I am selling this PC because I have recently moved to New Zealand and don't want to deal with the hassle of taking it with me. My brother has agreed to hold onto the PC and give it to whoever buys it.
It is currently 11:30pm here.
 

XJDHDR

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

And now I see you're trying to tarnish my reputation on the My Broadband forum as well.
 

ambroseg1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Proof of payment and screenshot of bank statement has been e-mailed to you.

How can you give out bank details that you KNOW you asked to be closed? Irrespective of how long it took them to close it, you asked them to close it, so should expect it to be closed any day. Or is that an unreasonable train of thought?

I am merely stating facts. Nothing I have said in my post is untrue. Calling you a scammer is based on your behaviour. Go and look at every single other bad deals thread. It does not take rocket science to identify scam-like behaviour. Even in your sale thread there is a posting about your dodge behaviour with your "brother". Why not give your "brother's" bank account if you know yours could/will be closed unexpectedly?

This IS 100% YOUR FAULT!

Like I said, I have moved on. If you are worried about your 27 post reputation here and on MyBB, simply do as other scammers do and create a new account.

Can't believe that now on top of all the other scammer-check questions one has to ask, "did you recently ask to close your bank account" is now also expected.
 

ambroseg1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

This once happened to us at work, we paid an account that we normally pay but they had cancelled it and the email notification of the bank change didnt get sent or read or whatever. Our bank got the money back, it took a bit longer than a few days and cost R250

So i suggest phoning your back and asking them what the best route is
Who are you talking to? The scammer or scammed? Either way, I did phone the bank from my side. Was told it would have been paid back into my account automatically within 24 hours except on weekends. I even asked the lady to call a supervisor. We looked at my account and when I paid (10PM Monday night). Supervisor said money should have been in yesterday (Tuesday). If the account were not closed, it would definitely reflect by today (Wednesday).

There is NOTHING more my bank can do. I paid it. Basically same situation as if I had entered an incorrect account number. Up to the account holder that got the money to pay me back.
 

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Who are you talking to? The scammer or scammed? Either way, I did phone the bank from my side. Was told it would have been paid back into my account automatically within 24 hours except on weekends. I even asked the lady to call a supervisor. We looked at my account and when I paid (10PM Monday night). Supervisor said money should have been in yesterday (Tuesday). If the account were not closed, it would definitely reflect by today (Wednesday).

There is NOTHING more my bank can do. I paid it. Basically same situation as if I had entered an incorrect account number. Up to the account holder that got the money to pay me back.
Hope this doesn't violate any rules

Just a quick note about banks. If payment was made Monday night between different banks, the cash would have only cleared this morning in the other bank. Which means a reversal will only be 24 hours after this morning. Your cash should be returned tonight or latest tomorrow morning if everything is kosher

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ambroseg1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Hope this doesn't violate any rules

Just a quick note about banks. If payment was made Monday night between different banks, the cash would have only cleared this morning in the other bank. Which means a reversal will only be 24 hours after this morning. Your cash should be returned tonight or latest tomorrow morning if everything is kosher

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
I doubt this violates rules. Thanks for you input. Your view differs from what the bank lady and her supervisor explained to me. I realise the bank people can be obtuse at times, so I am not saying you are wrong.
 

ambroseg1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

was talking to you as the person who paid, was just saying that is how it was resolved when it happened to us at work, unfortunately if that doesnt work i have no more useful info to add. I hope you guys can get it resolved :)
Thanks man. Appreciate the input. So many differing views on what happens in a case like this. My bank is adamant about it being back in my account in 24 hours. That said, I know they are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
 

rsifan

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Thanks man. Appreciate the input. So many differing views on what happens in a case like this. My bank is adamant about it being back in my account in 24 hours. That said, I know they are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
Things may have changed in the past couple years, but if I remember correctly, any EFT done after 3PM may only be received at the other bank at 00:00 of the following business day. So if you made payment on Monday at 10PM, it would only reflect on FNB's side on Tuesday night (midnight). I've had instances with payments from both Standard Bank and ABSA that took 2 days to reflect (I bank with FNB). And when my company (that banks with ABSA) pays my laptop claim on the 15th of each month, it only reflects on 17th or 18th, never 16th.
 

XJDHDR

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Here is the proof of payment that Ambroseg sent me:
View attachment 65470
If anyone compares this to my bank statement that I posted earlier (here it is again: Bank Statement ), you will clearly see that none of the transactions there match the contents of that PoP. Thus, it is very easy to conclude that I don't have Ambroseg's money and the onus is on the bank to return it to him. I can't do anything on my end.

Next, Ambroseg claimed that "Xavier de Rauville" is not my real name. Well, here is some more evidence proving you wrong:
edit: Ron Burgundy, removed posters ID before scammers abuse it

Next, I want to draw everyone's attention to the last PM Ambroseg sent me before creating this thread. In it, he gave me an ultimatum which I had to carry out before the next day (11 May) and that he would report me in this section of the forum if I didn't comply. The ultimatum was:
ambroseg1 said:
Thus there are 2 options going forward:
1. You send me the PSU today as agreed and send me the tracking number, as the payment would have definitely reflected today. If the payment is returned, I will pay it over to your brother. I will however not wait until it does.
2. You pay back the money into my account today and send me proof of payment and keep your PSU. If the payment is returned, I will pay it over to your brother. I will however not wait until it does. My bank details are as follows:
Well, he posted this thread about half-an-hour after making that ultimatum which just goes to show how well he kept his word. As for the conditions, the second one is that I refund the money he paid me in less than 24 hours even though he already knew that intra-bank transfers take at least that long to be processed. And that is on top of the fact that I no longer had a bank account to pay him from (and no, I can't think of a single friend or family member who would agree to make this payment for me) as well as the fact that the bank statement I showed him clearly indicated that I didn't have his money.

And the first condition entailed asking my brother to drop everything he was doing at work (which he is very busy at currently), drive to Durban, grab my PSU, package it up then take it to the post office all before the post office closed only a few hours later. Suffice to say, there was no way he would have agreed to that.

And finally, thank you everyone for the information you've posted. It's been clear from the start that the only reason Ambroseg doesn't have his money returned yet is because of delays at the banks.



As for you, Ambroseg, I find it fascinating that first, you engaged in name-calling by calling me a scammer and now you insult my posting activity ("your 27 post reputation") as well as my intelligence. That is a logical fallacy called the Ad Hominem. Also:
Thomas Jefferson said:
Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us.
Next, you keep calling me a scammer. Sorry, but you keep using that word but it doesn't mean what you think it means. The Cambridge dictionary defines the word as:
Someone who makes money using illegal methods, especially by tricking people
Other dictionaries use different wording but they all revolve around the concept of stealing someone's money by tricking them into paying it to the scammer.
The key term in those definitions is "makes money" or "stealing". And that is where your claim falls apart completely; How exactly do I "steal" your money by closing my account before your money has arrived in it? That is not a rhetorical question BTW: I expect an answer in your next post.

Also, there is a lot more evidence which seriously calls into question your claim that I'm a scammer.
  • Why would I "reveal" the so-called "scam" to you? You are claiming that I basically stole your money then immediately told you all about how I had just robbed you. When was the last time a scammer ever did that?
  • I have already successfully completed three sales with other members of this forum, including a moderator as you yourself noted. And on top of that, I have made many more successful sales on other websites (such as Bid or Buy which I mentioned in my thread). What exactly was so special about you that you were the one I was going to rob?
  • I have had this account for 5 years now and I've had other transaction related accounts for even longer than that. Why have I suddenly decided after so long that I want to steal money from you in what must be the most inept manner possible?
  • BTW, these are also not rhetorical questions. I also expect answers to all of these.
If you want to continue labelling me a scammer, please present actual evidence proving that I'm trying to steal your money. Your evidence also has to account for the fact that my bank statement clearly indicates zero payments from you.

Next, the most fascinating thing about this entire disagreement is that you are basically punishing me for being honest and communicating exactly what was going on on my end. This is in stark contrast to an actual scammer who lies about and hides what is going on on their end. I told you exactly what was going on and you thanked me by treating me like a criminal, harassing me and trying (unsuccessfully) to stop me from selling my PC. So tell me, would you have preferred it if I had said nothing about my problems and left you in the dark about what was happening?


How can you give out bank details that you KNOW you asked to be closed?
Why not give your "brother's" bank account if you know yours could/will be closed unexpectedly?
Good question indeed. Why did I give you my bank details and not my brother's if I knew my account was going to be closed? The simple explanation, of course, is that I did not know that it was going to be closed, despite your claims to the contrary. And you know what they say about simple explanation: Occam's razor

Also, why are you putting quotes around "brother"? Are you trying to claim that he doesn't exist? Unfortunately for you, you are completely ignoring the forum members in my thread who have openly stated that they talked to him. Also, take a look at this courier waybill (which, BTW, just happens to be the courier that delivered my SSD to the forum member who bought it):
View attachment 65461 View attachment 65460
Now who exactly is this "Luke de Rauville" who just happens to share my surname if he is not my brother? BTW, this isn't rhetorical either.


Irrespective of how long it took them to close it, you asked them to close it, so should expect it to be closed any day. Or is that an unreasonable train of thought?
Are you actually serious? Yes, this is most definitely unreasonable. In what galaxy is it okay for a business to promise that they will fulfil your request ASAP and then throw that request into a back room for a whole month before fulfilling that request, all while not saying a word to me about what was going on? All this when it doesn't even take 5 minutes to close an account (and yes, I know this because I have physically witnessed it). This is not rhetorical either.

You are actually exposing your bias in trying to justify FNB's behaviour. The only reason you are trying to justify it is because their tardiness negatively affected you. If I had told you that the cancellation had been promised 6 months ago, you would still have argued that I should have expected it to happen any day (after all, I should have expected it "Irrespective of how long it took them"). If you want to continue trying to justify FNB's actions or claiming that I knew the cancellation was going to happen the day after you made your payment, bring proof.

Quite frankly, if this behaviour is considered acceptable or to be expected, then all I can say is that I am glad I don't live in South Africa anymore. My PC and a few other odds and ends are the only ties I still have to SA and you are doing your utmost to try stop me from cutting those ties.


I am merely stating facts. Nothing I have said in my post is untrue.
Unfortunately for you, the evidence contradicts this statement.


Calling you a scammer is based on your behaviour.
As I have already conclusively demonstrated, the label "scammer" does not line up with me behaviour at all. There is a very good reason why you are the only person in this thread who is calling me a scammer.


Go and look at every single other bad deals thread.
No thanks! I would rather read a dictionary, where facts reign supreme and emotions/opinions have no place.


It does not take rocket science to identify scam-like behaviour.
No, not rocket science but getting an accurate definition of the word and then using critical-thinking skills to accurately match that definition to a scenario is a massive benefit.


Even in your sale thread there is a posting about your dodge behaviour with your "brother".
Too bad you completely ignored the posts that both myself and Battletoad made in response to Phence's post. Also, how exactly does telling someone, "The deal is off. I'm not going to sell the sound card to you anymore. Keep your money." constitute "scamming" them? How exactly have I scammed someone by changing my mind about doing business with them? This is not rhetorical either.


This IS 100% YOUR FAULT!
I could say that you are wrong but at this point, I think this is becoming redundant.


Like I said, I have moved on.
And now you are contradicting yourself. First you sent me the documents I asked for which implies that you want to continue the transaction and now you're implying that you don't want the PSU anymore. So which is it: Do you want the PSU or not?

Despite your continued rude behaviour, I am still willing to continue our transaction. If you are also willing to do so, that is fine. If you want to back out, that is also fine.


If you are worried about your 27 post reputation here and on MyBB, simply do as other scammers do and create a new account.
Ignoring the Ad Hominem, I am not going to create a new account for a number of reasons:
  • I would be playing right into your hands by doing so.
  • My accounts have not been affected by your crusade so there is no need to do so.
  • It is trivially easy for a moderator to tell that an account was created to circumvent a ban.


Can't believe that now on top of all the other scammer-check questions one has to ask, "did you recently ask to close your bank account" is now also expected.
No it isn't. As I've already explained, closing your bank account before your target has paid anything into it is completely counter-productive to conducting a scam.


I hope you don't have too much more to say. Typing up these rebuttals is very time consuming.
Also, I have a lot of work to complete from my college today. Thus, don't expect any more replies from me until tomorrow at the earliest. Then again, unless you have something new to contribute to this discussion (as opposed to simply re-hashing what you have already said), I think I have said everything that needs to be said.
 
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Seraph

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

[MENTION=2029]ambroseg1[/MENTION]

It takes time for funds to reflect. Just be patient! Goddamn.
 

abs1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

That was an extremely well articulated counter argument which I kinda enjoyed. This might very well land me a ban for posting but I have to give credit where it's due. You bring some valid points to this discussion. I also believe the 2 week waiting period before bad deals threads are posted had some merit before it was removed, maybe it should be looked at again. Maybe 1 week should suffice, just my 2c.

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

I'm moving this to Smach Talk for now, as it really doesn't come across as a bad deal.
Well then I can ask OP what's going on. Did the money reflect in your account today as it was supposed to, or is there something else going on?

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ThanaToeter_ZA

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

[MENTION=23389]XJDHDR[/MENTION] deserves a title or something for a well articulated counter argument like that...
Damn, that IS impressive.
Well done mate.

*Edit. Dude, go study and become a lawyer or something.
 

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Too much rage on one side...however and this is a big however, I agree with OP that you shoudl never have given him your account number for an account you asked the bank to close.
It does not matter if you didnt know when they were going to close it you should have treated it as being closed as of the day you gave the instruction.
You owe a person sending you monies on trust at least that DUTY OF CARE!!
 

ambroseg1

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

There is still no reflection of funds in my account. Its just tough luck for me. I seem to be wrong in having posted a bad deal and has been rightly moved to smack talk. Will pay the school fees and move on.
 

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Starting to wonder if this isn't just attention seeking.

Because trying to understand this thread, there's so many things wrong with it on so many levels, it doesn't make sense to me. At all.
 

SCHUMI4EVER

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

Right, so we are all on [MENTION=23389]XJDHDR[/MENTION] 's side after Post #13?



Bullshit.

I refuse to move past this statement.

Second, you are leaving out a very crucial detail in our conversation regarding my bank account: I asked FNB to close the account a month ago. Can you please explain to me why it is reasonable to assume that FNB would wait a whole month to close that account after they told me that it would be done ASAP? How was I supposed to know that they would twiddle their thumbs and only do the cancellation at their leisure? Surely it is more reasonable to assume that they simply weren't going to do it at all.
No, no that was not a reasonable assumption at all. A reasonable assumption would be that the bank WILL close the account (at an unknown future point). Just because they have not done so yet you do not simply keep using it willy nilly assuming your request fell on deaf ears.

3 things:
Why were you not pestering the bank to close it say, 2 weeks down the line of it still being open? You wanted it closed, make them close it. You are paying fees on the thing for Pete's sake.

Secondly you closing that account means you have some alternate means of both making and receiving payments lined up. From the point you request closing of the account you use this alternate method and only this alternate going forward. You do NOT watch your old account and simply assume you can keep using it because nothing has happened yet.

Thirdly any issues that arise from someone using this account that you requested closed are your mistake and your issue to deal with.

It's clear the money is in limbo. Payment was made after hours and your account closure was processed the following day at around the same time the payment would have been processed on the Standard Bank side. It would have then likely reflected in your account on the 10th due to FNB vs Standard Bank lag. But no, you provided a closed account and sent the money into limbo.
Granted you have not received payment but [MENTION=2029]ambroseg1[/MENTION] has done everything expected of him in a reasonable deal (besides the temper tantrum) so because you fucked up you should fullfill the deal and wait for the money to get out of limbo, back to [MENTION=2029]ambroseg1[/MENTION] and then he can pay you again into whatever alternate you now must have.


To sum up again. You fucked up. The onus is now on you to render the item to [MENTION=2029]ambroseg1[/MENTION] and await the renewed payment of money your nonsense has delayed.
 
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Oj0

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

In all fairness, this is South Africa. If something isn't done within five minutes of being requested one can generally assume that it will not be done. Ever.
 

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

In all fairness, this is South Africa. If something isn't done within five minutes of being requested one can generally assume that it will not be done. Ever.
I still agree with Sal and Masterblaster though. This is not OPs fault. This is 120% on the seller. It is completely the fault of theirs because of the whole account closure. Whether it was 'assumed' closed or not. What if a formal company decided to use that excuse? They would be hilariously ridiculed.

IMHO- Temper tantrum was had (maybe should not have been had) but OP is still PERFECTLY CORRECT
 

[AKO] MatthewGhost

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

In all fairness, this is South Africa. If something isn't done within five minutes of being requested one can generally assume that it will not be done. Ever.
This is true, had to wait a full 8 days for a refund with a similar issue.

If I was the (accused) I would just send the item and wait till everything is sorted out with the lingering money which is more than likely in the process of being refunded to OP (I know FNB said 1 day, it's never the case, ever)

Be the bigger man dude, you have nothing to lose.



Ps. I did enjoy the argument too :D
 
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CerealKiller_ZA

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

[video=youtube;n4-pq40l58k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4-pq40l58k[/video]
 

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

You could have just introduced your brother to the forum and made him do this deal with his active bank account since you know you've relocated.

So if anything went wrong we could grab him by his ear.

I don't blame OP for calling you a scammer and reacting in such a manner, I could easily sit my ass in Zimbabwe and sell a single item to a moderator and gain trust from the rest of the community, put shoe polish in empty 1080ti boxes and sell them here, aint nobody going to snatch my ass in Zimbabwe :/
Man up!

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

You could have just introduced your brother to the forum and made him do this deal with his active bank account since you know you've relocated.

So if anything went wrong we could grab him by his ear.

I don't blame OP for calling you a scammer and reacting in such a manner, I could easily sit my ass in Zimbabwe and sell a single item to a moderator and gain trust from the rest of the community, put shoe polish in empty 1080ti boxes and sell them here, aint nobody going to snatch my ass in Zimbabwe :/
Man up!

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Noted to NEVER buy a gtx 1080ti from you ever.
 

malte

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

so XJDHDR used an acc that's supposed to get closed...
i don't really understand why???

now ambroseg1 went on a rampage because of it. honestly, i would also be pissed off but from what i read, you made accusations gave him an impossible ultimatum and started bad threads on multiple web sides. that's not really how you solve problems

all that this thread did, is making some members (including me due to your incredible patience) not deal with you anymore
well i don't do a lot of deals anyway...

at least we had/have some entertainment out of it :)
 

crack2483

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Re: Bad Deal - XJDHDR

That huge wall of text could've been split up in several posts and upped your rep post count

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